Burn Hole

[dennis25]

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I think my M7 has a burn hole in the shutter curtain, anyone else experience this before.

 

Leica UK told me it need to go back Solms for repair, but I don't want to wait for a few months?

 

Red Dot Cameras could do a full service + £20 for the curtain replace, sounds good to me.

 

Or any other options?

 

[adan]

1. Yes (M6 ttl)

2. Repaired under Passport Warranty (i.e., free) by Leica USA - as I recall it took about 3 weeks in 2003. But that was a different era - no digitals, fewer newly introduced cameras with teething problems.

3. Can't really comment on service in the UK, so I'll leave those for your country(wo)men.

[andybarton]

Well, it's got a hole...

 

I have never experienced a burn hole in a shutter curtain, but, and I'm guessing, I would have thought that it would have been in the middle of the curtain. Whatever the cause - you need a new curtain.

 

RedDot use a guy down in Somerset. He did a full CLA on my wife's IIIf earlier this year and it came back like new. £20 for a new curtain sounds like a "bite their hand off" price to me.

 

CRR in Luton are another reliable option.

[Xmas]

Hi

 

It is a frequent fault, leaving camera on coffee table with a wide angle lens focused at 6 foot, deadly... The silk fabric and rubber compound can also get 'sun burn' over long time, get too brittle, and crack.

 

Replacing the shutter fabric, ribbons etc. is not a difficult repair but is not cheap. They get lots of practice cause the ribbons also can snap with age/use.

 

Red Dots service is easy if you are in London

 

I normally use CRR Luton, cause I'm local

CAMERA REPAIRS & RESTORATION - LUTON , ENGLAND <p> Happy New Year 2010

 

lots of people also use Malcolm Taylor, from Midlands

Malcolm Taylor Leica Specialist, Photographic Equipment in Leominster HR6 9SZ,

 

Noel

[earleygallery]

That really doesn't look like a burn hole to me. But £20 to fix it isn't going to burn a hole in your pocket!

[stunsworth]

Doesn't look like a burn hole to me either.

[farnz]

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That's definitely a bullet hole.

 

 

Incidentally, did anyone else make the same mistake as me by reading the title too quickly and mentally running the "r" and "n" together to accidentally make a much more surprising title?

 

Pete.

[dennis25]

Thanks all for the recommendation. I think reddot would be easiest for me.

 

£20 to replace when done at time of service which cost another £120 +VAT.

 

That's going to hurt my pocket a bit, the body came back from a shutter jam repair last week, and the M7 was bought second hand just a month ago.

 

I'm hoping the service would get it back like new again.

 

 

Dennis

[EJohnE]

Thanks all for the recommendation. I think reddot would be easiest for me.

 

£20 to replace when done at time of service which cost another £120 +VAT.

 

That's going to hurt my pocket a bit, the body came back from a shutter jam repair last week, and the M7 was bought second hand just a month ago.

 

I'm hoping the service would get it back like new again.

 

 

Dennis

 

Repaired shutter last week?? The damage looks more as if an implement went through it than a burn. Why not contact the repairer, who may have accidentally done the deed?

 

John.

[dennis25]

yes i suspect it might be the repairer but it could be me pointing the sun over the last few very hot days, I don't have the lens cap on.

 

what's a burn hole looks like, can anyone confirm?

 

[ho_co]

I'd go back to the repairer first thing and get an explanation of what he did. Maybe a screw backed out and jammed the shutter and tore a hole through it, though I've never heard of that happening.

 

Take a look at the additional discoloration and fabric damage to the left of the spot in post #10. And there's discoloration below and to the right of it as well. Burn holes are tiny and at one place. This is mechanical, not a burn hole. Whatever caused it may have come from inside the camera, so it would be good to have the whole camera checked.

 

My recommendation for any Leica with a metering spot on the curtain is to let Solms handle it unless you know the repairer has trained with Leica.

 

It used to be (and maybe still is) that each camera's meter had to be calibrated to the individual curtain spot, because the paint didn't always coat the same way. That's why with the M6 the backplate quick-remove lever was discontinued: Since the meter calibration was done in the ISO setting assembly on the backplate, switching backplates could mean switching to a different metering setting.

 

Same here switching to a different curtain with a different metering spot.

[redbaron]

That aint a burn hole. It's not round and the edges should be black. Try and replicate it with a similar material and you'll see what a burn hole looks like.

[adan]

Actually, the slight comma shape is exactly what some burn holes look like - the sun does move across the sky, and thus its image moves across the shutter curtain in an arc, if the camera is left on a poolside table or patio or whatever for several minutes (Sun moves about 1° every 4 minutes). There is no reason at all burn holes have to be a circle:

 

http://spiritcloth.typepad.com/what_if/images/2008/02/12/burned_and_smoked_muslin_over_musli.jpg

 

Depends on the aperture - my burn hole incident occured in 30 seconds between shots carrying the camera over my shoulder (35mm lens @ f/2 - I could tell by where the fogged spot suddenly showed up from one negative to the next). So it wiggled a lot, not "round" at all.

 

The discoloration is called "charring" - a clear indication of heat damage to the rubber on one side (first picture, which also shows melted rubber) and the cloth threads on the other (second image). Charred black dyes often turn brownish.

 

Of course, possibly Dennis's repair person is a blacksmith between camera jobs, and accidently put his camera tools in the forge to heat up before shoving them through the shutter curtain - wanna bet?

 

"What does a burn hole look like?"

 

The only constant is evidence of heat damage - discoloration of the cloth or rubber and "crispy" charred flaking cloth threads (as in both your images). The shape can vary widely from a perfect circle to a comma to a "V" to a long "worm" depending on how long the shutter was exposed to the hot sun's image, the aperture, and whether the camera itself was moving during the "exposure" (lying on a moving vehicle seat, hung from a shoulder) or stayed in one place.

 

Moving shadows (clouds, or tree-shaded stretches of road if the camera is on a car seat) can interrupt the burn process and lead to variable or interrupted burning marks.

[Xmas]

Hi Dennis

 

You need a lens cap, and you need to use it when not expecting to shoot, when the sun is out you need to be careful handling the camera especially if using a fast wide angle focused close. Patio tables or tables outside coffee shops bad, set camera nose down or use cap.

 

That is a big hole if it was the sun the film would have shown an evidence mark and a exposed streamer on every subsequent frame. A fast lens makes a good fire starting device

 

It would be clear when it occured? If you have had a film through the camera since the last repair.

 

Interestingly there are signs of damage on the front of the curtain on other side of white spot near the frame edge. Two more typical burn holes where only the fabric has been lost, either of these would be serious damage, in more normal circumstances, fabric paint might have allowed long term service, to next CLA.

 

You need to clean and inspect the interior between films/lens changes.

 

Noel

[giordano]

You need a lens cap, and you need to use it when not expecting to shoot, when the sun is out you need to be careful handling the camera especially if using a fast wide angle focused close. Patio tables or tables outside coffee shops bad, set camera nose down or use cap.

 

You must spend a lot of time sitting outside coffee shops. Usually it's enough just to put the camera down with the lens facing away from the sun. If one's going to stay for hours, the camera should be in the shade anyway.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Dennis25,

 

Sorry about what happened to your M7.

 

I had a similar hole, cause unknown, repaired over 30 years ago by Leitz. Structurally it has never failed and remains flexible today. The repair was never esthetically pleasing. What is important is it has always worked perfectly.

 

Your shutter curtain hole looks to me as if it was made with a slotted screw screwdriver. The additional damages both on the right below and on the left appear to be from the same time period as the hole.

 

If the hole is a burn mark why are the white tips of the cotton threads on the perimeter of the hole no darker than the white threads of the other damages mentioned? Also: Do you also see this hole when the shutter is run down? We know you see it when the shutter is cocked. Under any circumstance not the end of the world and emminently fixable.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[adan]

Michael - ash (residue after burning) is often white, and often whiter than the original unburned material:

 

http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm04232327/images/fig03.jpg

http://www.planetbarbecue.co.uk/images/smoker017.JPG

http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/cheese/smoker/01_charcoal_fire_P7040011.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Charcoal_fire,Katori-city,Japan.JPG

http://www.factmonster.com/images/ESCI077CHEENE001.jpg

 

etc., etc.

[Xmas]

You must spend a lot of time sitting outside coffee shops. Usually it's enough just to put the camera down with the lens facing away from the sun. If one's going to stay for hours, the camera should be in the shade anyway.

 

Yes I OD on coffee, but I never leave camera on table outside, for security, I do see a lot of other people do though.

I've had people lose gbags from same table.

Your advise to try and keep the camera & lens cool is good though, the vulcanite (and black finish) does absorb a lot of heat, lube can out gas, tending to wax or migrate. I'd keep camera in gbag - black gbags are a no no, for same reason.

 

Noel

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Andy,

 

Thank you for listening to my perspective. Thank you also for the photographs I think they exactly show my point. To me, the ends in the photos sent by Dennis25 look like the ends of cut white cotton threads. Sharp. Please look especially at the second photo. The whites in your photos appear powdered. Soft.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

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Hallo,

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[wizard]

Whatever cause, but 20 quid for a curtain replacement sounds just too good to be true.

 

Andy