The Leica 30% offer really detriments non-EU persons

[bnelson]

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T

In the end, Leica is making an offer. We can decide whether to accept it or reject it. We can not re-design the deal, any more than we can re-design the camera. I suggest just accepting it for what it is and making a personal decision, rather than complaining that some countries getting a higher effective percentage savings than others.

 

 

Carsten...

 

That's exactly what I did, I accepted and bought today.

 

Bill

[Eoin]

Sorry Carstenw, I'm with the USA members on this one, the letter clearly states "at a preferential price, which is baised on a 30% discount on an international average. Please accept that this percentage may differ SLIGHTLY from local price schemes".

 

then in the T & C's they state that "in the event of a delivery to a non EU country, the given prices include the respective import turnover tax".

 

Then again on the back of the order form it states, "the cost of lens to your address and all additional costs for possible import customs duty will be borne by Leica Camera AG".

 

Make your own mind up as to whom is realy paying the import charges (at a premium rate I might add). There seems to be contradictions with these statements....... but they have until the 30th June 2007 to sort it out.

 

30% is 30% in any man's language, yes slight calculation differences will occur from country to country but not to the extent we are seeing in the USA or even here in Europe given the fact that many retailers sell Leica below the MRRP.

 

Some of the best intentions can back fire very quickly, as we say, "you can keep some of the people happy some of the time but, you'll never keep all the people happy all the time".

This offer is like a red rag to a bull for our Amreican members and I can understand the anger expressed here.

[johnastovall]

The more I read about this the more I wonder why Leica just didn't issue each person a letter good for 30% off the retail price of any new lenses from an authorized deal. Let the person find the best deal and with the dealer put in the retail price less 30% and the dealer turn it back to his wholesale chain for a credit plus a few percent for his time from Leica.

[stunsworth]

John, because by selling the lens at what is basically the dealer price to an individual, it won't cost Leica any money.

 

This is not a criticism of Leica, I think they are trying to keep the early adopters happy.

[FastFashnReloaded]

Or, you can go spend 6,799.99 on a flat panel TV from Sony (et all). (2 megapixels) Sit on your couch, get fat, watch reruns of Magnum PI and Knight Rider.

 

Gee. seems like a 10MP Leica digital M is a pretty good deal... (lol)

 

:-) Hope y'all had a nice holiday, looks like 2007 is on track for the same old same old.

[waterlenz]

Tom, I expect Leica will be looking to simplify the logistics of supplying lenses to a wide variety of shipping destinations and tax regimes. One of the things you can do with companies like DHL is get them to clear the item through customs, pay all taxes and charges due and charge back to the shipper. The customer gets the lens for the price they expect, Leica get an invoice which varies by customer destination for the cost of getting the lens to the customer.

 

I'm looking at a DHL Airway Bill right now and there's a check box: "Destination duties/taxes: Payable by Shipper".

 

This assumes that DHL can deliver, which they do not, to my remote Alaska bush location. EMS is the only viable method. Cost for me to send similar items overseas has been in the 50 to 70 USD range. For individual items, duty is not collected. So there is thus no justification for paying anything above base price plus the small shipping charge.

Tom

[waterlenz]

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For you, and anyone else in the States, I wouldn't think of this as not giving you the 30% rebate at all, but rather as getting a 30% rebate on every lens, all the time. There are a lot of us out here who really do pay prices similar to these ones, every time.

 

This is not directed at you, Howard, but it is disappointing to hear all these complaints about the rebate. The States has historically been a fantastically cheap country to live in, with respect to prices on consumer articles, but there seems to be no appreciation for this fact among many of its citizens, in spite of the high social cost of the no-VAT decision, such as rich-poor ratios similar to third-world countries, high crime, and little money for social projects.

 

Remember that Leica's costs are very high, due to the quality of materials and elaborate quality assurance (ironic at this time). They are not making tonnes of money on each lens, just a cut. Expecting them to lower the price to ensure the parity of the deal for citizens of a country which in many states charges no VAT--a unique situation--is not reasonable. We do want Leica to survive this debacle.

 

 

Why should US folks subsidize your taxes? We fought a war, in part, over taxes in the 1700's. No taxation without representation...

Tom

[waterlenz]

Normally, when I buy something from an EU country, the selling company, sells the item without VAT. When the items reach Norway, the custom, send me an invoice for the 25% VAT and a small handling fee. The VAT is based on the invoice from the selling company.

 

This is what I expect from the 30% rebate deal from Leica as well.

 

It may be possible to go to Germany to pick up the lens and collect the VAT refund on departing the country, which non-EU folks are entitled to.

T

[waterlenz]

There are more complications than just MSRP. Leica does not normally sell directly to users, and having to ship all these lenses and keep track of all the information must be a real nightmare. Keep in mind that the costs incurred in the production and sale of the lens are all in Germany, regardless of where the lens goes. We have no idea what costs are incurred when a lens gets shipped to the States. It is not simply shipping. Insurance on lenses this expensive is decidedly non-trivial, and there may be legal costs in the States which don't exist in Europe, due to the much higher risk of lawsuits, and so on.

 

In the end, Leica is making an offer. We can decide whether to accept it or reject it. We can not re-design the deal, any more than we can re-design the camera. I suggest just accepting it for what it is and making a personal decision, rather than complaining that some countries getting a higher effective percentage savings than others.

 

If you want a dose of reality from the other side of the fence, I have recently seen an electronics item listed for $599US, and the equivalent european price was €699. The item was made in Europe, IIRC, although to be honest I cannot recall what I was looking at right now. This is the reality of living in Europe, 99% of the time. More commonly, such items have the same numerical price in the States and Europe, although the U.S. dollar is worth 25% less. Just for this one single time, it swings the other way, and we have a thread full of complaints. I am not terribly sympathetic.

 

Anyway, I give up on this thread.

They are going to have to track our original receipts, that has already been established. So they are working on a one on one basis. Shipping costs are really trivial, see my other reply. Lenses are not heavy.

T

[waterlenz]

I wonder how Canon or Nikon would have handled it ? At least Leica made an offer, which they didn't really have to do.

 

Bruno

 

They often send out real rebates as in $$, more if one buys 3 items.

[waterlenz]

Sorry Carstenw, I'm with the USA members on this one, the letter clearly states "at a preferential price, which is baised on a 30% discount on an international average. Please accept that this percentage may differ SLIGHTLY from local price schemes".

 

then in the T & C's they state that "in the event of a delivery to a non EU country, the given prices include the respective import turnover tax".

 

Then again on the back of the order form it states, "the cost of lens to your address and all additional costs for possible import customs duty will be borne by Leica Camera AG".

 

Make your own mind up as to whom is realy paying the import charges (at a premium rate I might add). There seems to be contradictions with these statements....... but they have until the 30th June 2007 to sort it out.

 

30% is 30% in any man's language, yes slight calculation differences will occur from country to country but not to the extent we are seeing in the USA or even here in Europe given the fact that many retailers sell Leica below the MRRP.

 

Some of the best intentions can back fire very quickly, as we say, "you can keep some of the people happy some of the time but, you'll never keep all the people happy all the time".

This offer is like a red rag to a bull for our Amreican members and I can understand the anger expressed here.

 

 

Not so, the price is OK for Germans as it includes the VAT they are required to pay. We in the US are thus being asked to pay this tax. I want to see a non-taxed price, and then itemized costs for shipping, etc. Anything else is an insult.

Tom

[carstenw]

Why should US folks subsidize your taxes?

 

That statement is incorrect. The money goes to taxes only when you live in Germany. The costs are different for each country.

 

If you should choose to buy a lens from Leica, which is voluntary, I might remind you, you are paying the stated price because you are buying from a company based on manufacturing and distribution out of Germany. Whether the offer is worth it to you is your personal decision.

 

You are again forgetting that this is not only about taxes. The extra costs which go to the VAT when a German/European buys one of these lenses goes towards covering other expenses when you live elsewhere. The real difference is much less. Leica does not sell directly to end-consumers normally, and they are incurring much larger costs for this whole transaction than they usually do, including some ill-will on behalf of dealers who get cut out of the loop. They will have to create a whole new way of keeping track of people, making sure that the cheaters get locked out, dealing directly with shipping to all over the world, instead of just a few distribution centres, ramping up the number of people who have to manage this whole nightmarish thing, insurance for the shipping, figuring out how to book this financially, and on and on. Having to keep track of exactly what percentage every customer saves, and somehow equalising this, would be a total nightmare. This is not just about taxes. Given how few people work for Leica in the first place, I have no idea whose time they can afford to spend on this whole logistical operation.

 

Btw., I am not German, I just happen to work here at the moment.

[carstenw]

They are going to have to track our original receipts, that has already been established. So they are working on a one on one basis. Shipping costs are really trivial, see my other reply. Lenses are not heavy.

T

Tom, since you apparently already know, what does it cost to ship a €3000 lens to Alaska, fully insured?

[robsteve]

I just bought and paid for a M8 to be delivered when ever the dealer gets one. From what I heard from a Leica Rep, there are issues to be worked out on the original offer from Solms, so I suspect there will be some changes made to the offer sometime in the New Year.

 

For me, the wide angle Tri-Elmar with finder still looks like the best deal on the list. Maybe by June, I will be able to afford it

[michael friedberg]

Tom, since you apparently already know, what does it cost to ship a €3000 lens to Alaska, fully insured?

 

I'm not Tom and I don't live in Alaska, but shipping my M8 camera body to me from Germany to the U.S., fully insured, and using FedEx as the courier, cost €80.

 

By the way, I buy from retailers in Germany (and Switzerland) all the time. They deduct VAT on sales to purchasers outside the EU. That essentially means that I get a discount from European pricing but also that's usually compensated for by the exchange rate differential. For example, my M8 without VAT but in Euros roughly was within 5% of the US list price, and with shipping probably was within 2%. To me it's not about savings a $100 one way or the other, but availability of the product and fairness of the deal.

[Guest stnami]

.. Leica management are no different to other organisations... it's about money///..... confuse the punter and make them pay. A quick winge and all will be forgiven, .....in so deep hard to get out///////..,,..,

[Eoin]

Not so, the price is OK for Germans as it includes the VAT they are required to pay. We in the US are thus being asked to pay this tax. I want to see a non-taxed price, and then itemized costs for shipping, etc. Anything else is an insult.

Tom

 

I think you may have missed my point, Leica on one had say the import tax and shipping costs will be borne by Leica AG, then on the other hand they say the price quoted for non EU sales includes import taxes. There for I would suggest the prices quoted in the letter for non EU customers are in effect forcing the said customer to actualy pay a premium of 19%. The German vat rate of 19% in effect is paid by leica to the German government. Leica don't have to pay this tax for sales outside of the EU. That being said, shipping and handling within the EU or to the USA should be about the same cost.

 

If you make an offer of 30% off the list price of an item, it should be that, 30%. For me, the only lens of real interest is the Noctilux, but typicaly as with most things in life what you expect and what you get are two different things. The current list price including 16% MwSt for the Noctilux is €3350, my offer letter says I can buy it in January 2007 including 19% MwSt and a 30% discount for €3495. By my calculation the list price (not allowing for any price increase by Leica) in January should have been €3437 then I should have got a 30% discount off that price giving a total of €2406.

 

So it's not only you that are getting a rough ride.

[billh]

I received the letter from Leica in the mail today (Dec. 28). The only lens which interests me is the 28 mm Summicron - I bought the 28f2.8ASPH with the M8 because the 28 f2.0 was not available. The “30% discount” offer from Leica is 2027 Euros, ($2,654.56 ) vs the 2299 Euros ($3010.77) I pay by purchasing it from the dealer I like in Germany. That is an 11.8% discount, which is more like 30% of the 30% discount they offered. It costs $3195 from B & H in New York, which is $16.9% more than the Leica offer.

 

There is a short paragraph saying, “The prices given include the statutory value added tax which amounts to 19% for deliveries occurring on 1 January 2007 or later. If value added tax is levied on an export delivery pursuant to laws of member states of the European Union (EU) the prices include the value added tax rate of the respective member state. In the event of a delivery to a non-EU country the given prices include the respective import turnover tax.” I assume by import turnover tax, they mean the USA duty. However, it appears they pay this, whatever it is, and pocket the difference. 19% of 2299 is 436.81 Euros ($572.05), making the lens cost, without VAT 1862.19 Euros, or $2438.72 plus whatever the duty is here.

 

That inexpensive 28 f1.9 lens Sean tested is looking pretty good about now. I think I would really be annoyed if I was one of the many who paid for the camera (without knowing when they would receive it) before Dec 31 in order to get the 30% discount.

[farnz]

As the proverb says: "Never look a gifthorse in the mouth."

 

The reduction is a gift from Leica. Accept it or reject it. Your choice. End of story.

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Hallo,

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[stunsworth]

Call Leica in the New Year for clarification, if you're happy with the price buy a lens, if not don't buy a lens.