The M10 or a new camera line? [Merged]

[rosuna]

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Let's also consider Leica's decision making process. Does anyone think, for one second, that Leica will listen to the childish rantings of a bunch of amateurs? If we suppose that they actually need any help designing their cameras, who are they going to ask? The staff at Magnum, Black Star, AFP, National Geographic or a bunch of inexperienced amateurs?

 

Amateurs of course, just because they are the target market for Leica (and Canon, Sony, Pentax, Nikon...).

 

Do you know how many Magnum photographers (Alan Harvey, Parr...) make a living? Teaching. I have said "many", but I should have said "most". Professional photography is mostly dead, and it is totally dead in terms of relative importance for this industry, which now is consumer electronics. There are a few exceptions, and some professional equipment, but even when some cameras are designed for particular types of professionals (events photographers... well, weddings photographers; sports photographers; studio photographers for products or fashion), most of the sales come from amateurs.

 

Your reasoning is... amateur...

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[Jerry_R]

Leica is to bring PROFIT. And it has GREAT OPPORTUNITY to fill in the niche on the market.

 

The staff at Magnum, Black Star, AFP, National Geographic or a bunch of inexperienced amateurs?

Answer is clear. Of course bunch of amateurs.

They bring profit to company by buying cameras.

They are a mass.

They pay.

They vote with wallets.

 

Of course - Leica can leave that niche for other producers, who earlier or later will enter it.

It is tough business question.

[Jerry_R]

Another confirmation, that something is coming:

Updates from Stefan Daniel | Leica News & Rumors

[redbaron]

Amateurs of course, just because they are the target market for Leica (and Canon, Sony, Pentax, Nikon...).

 

Do you know how many Magnum photographers (Alan Harvey, Parr...) make a living? Teaching. I have said "many", but I should have said "most". Professional photography is mostly dead, and it is totally dead in terms of relative importance for this industry, which now is consumer electronics. There are a few exceptions, and some professional equipment, but even when some cameras are designed for particular types of professionals (events photographers... well, weddings photographers; sports photographers; studio photographers for products or fashion), most of the sales come from amateurs.

 

Your reasoning is... amateur...

 

What would you say to one of your first year students who said something like; "I don't care how you do things, but I want the tax system changed now to suit my needs. I want the tax on all my video games abolished, I want my phone bill subsidised and I want free fast food. Our tax system needs these changes if it is to adapt to the changing needs of society. The old ways are dead."

 

The same analogy applies to all the other amateur engineers and CEOs. Have a think about how you would react to a learner demanding that your professional tools be changed to suit their needs.

[AlanG]

I wonder if it was Natchway or Salgado who convinced Leica to make the a la carte program?

 

Professional photography isn't quite dead yet... I and many others I know still make a good living at it. However, photojournalism as a career would be a very tough way to make a (probably poor) living. And not many photojournalists will be able to afford Leica M9s and current Leica lenses.

 

But professional use of Leica Ms is pretty low in any field from what I can see. (Not dead but in steep decline from when Leicas were commonly used by pros.) So if they had asked pros at various times they would have told Leica to make a camera the likes of a Nikon F, a Nikon F4, a Canon 1Ds, a Canon 5D, a Nikon D3x. From what I can tell, the bulk of the market for Leica Ms is Leica enthusiasts of various levels of photographic skill from learner to expert.

 

Here's a thought. Many M users also use other camera types. What would be wrong if more of those other types of cameras were also Leicas?

[redbaron]

Alan, what exactly do you do for a living?

[AlanG]

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Alan, what exactly do you do for a living?

 

Advertising photography - mostly architectural and interiors. But I do a lot of lifestyle and photojournalism style for ad agencies to illustrate the amenities in a region to market new condos and communities.

 

I started out at age 13 wanting to be a photojournalist and back when I was a student at RIT in the early 70s I realized that was a pretty lousy career path. (Life Magazine, where I had dreamt of following in the footsteps of Gene Smith, ceased publication.)

 

I've worked commercially since 1975. I've been a chapter president of ASMP as well as a national director of ASMP. I am a member of APA and attend meetings and lectures regularly. So I know and have known a lot of professional shooters.

[Jerry_R]

how you would react to a learner demanding that your professional tools be changed to suit their needs.

Simple: listen and co-operate.

 

We do not talk about school here, but about market. You do not listen and co-operate - your students go away, to another teacher.

This is called PARTNERSHIP. This is building RELATIONSHIP. This is creating CUSTOMER LOYALTY.

[redbaron]

Advertising photography - mostly architectural and interiors. But I do a lot of lifestyle and photojournalism style for ad agencies to illustrate the amenities in a region to market new condos and communities.

 

I started out at age 13 wanting to be a photojournalist and back when I was a student at RIT in the early 70s I realized that was a pretty lousy career path. (Life Magazine, where I had dreamt of following in the footsteps of Gene Smith, ceased publication.)

 

I've worked commercially since 1975. I've been a chapter president of ASMP as well as a national director of ASMP. I am a member of APA and attend meetings and lectures regularly. So I know and have known a lot of professional shooters.

 

Simple: listen and co-operate.

 

We do not talk about school here, but about market. You do not listen and co-operate - your students go away, to another teacher.

This is called PARTNERSHIP. This is building RELATIONSHIP. This is creating CUSTOMER LOYALTY.

 

Alan, thank you. Now we know where you are coming from. But Jerry, what if thirty students all demand different things? I actually thought the flow of information in the learning process went the other way. When did that change? I can remember sitting quietly in lectures. It must be a nightmare now!

[lct]

Where the "compromises" are if it is implemented as a clip-on accessory EVF?

Yes, this is the point. All the rest is litterature and feeling (or lack thereof) of what a rangefinder is basically.

[Jerry_R]

what if thirty students all demand different things? [...] I can remember sitting quietly in lectures.

1) We do not talk about school here, but about market.

 

2) I see opponents of EVF & Leica - ONLY ON THIS FORUM. All people I know - who are interested in EVF and mature to forget size and all disadvantages of mirrors - want ONLY ONE, not thirty things - FF EVIL. And If that would use LEICA glass - uhmmm ;-)

 

Also - most of misunderstanding of current, latest generation EVILs - are also coming from people who know what dSLRs are, and think they know what EVIL is without spending some time with cameras like G1 or E-P2 with its EVF. This is causing most misunderstanding.

 

PS: will dSLRS still be produced in 10 years horizon? YES. Mostly for professional photograhers, eg. making sport photos. Why companies would still produce them? Prestige. 90% of consumers (who bring most of profit) - will be more happy with smaller, lighter systems.

[rosuna]

Have a think about how you would react to a learner demanding that your professional tools be changed to suit their needs.

 

Amateurs photographers may be more demanding and technically superior to many professional photographers. I have known bad professionals and great amateurs. You don't know what are you talking about.

[lct]

...most of misunderstanding of current, latest generation EVILs - are also coming from people who know what dSLRs are, and think they know what EVIL is without spending some time with cameras like G1 or E-P2 with its EVF. This is causing most misunderstanding...

Jerry i've never used the E-P2 but just tried the G1. Cute little cam, very good pictures, i would be tempted it it were APS but as far as manual focusing is concerned there are parsecs of difference with any cheapo rangefinder.

[Jerry_R]

Meanwhile - Panasonic G2 - is coming to market in a month. You can touch any place on LCD (or select in EVF using buttons) - then it automatically magnifies the screen, you can quickly and precisely focus and - shoot.

 

Forget:

- front focus

- back focus

- need of body calibration

- need of lenses calibration

- need of body & lenses calibration

- guess game - of using central of the frame for focusing - and then re-composing afterwards

 

dSLRs can not deliver above at all. Only EVIL cameras.

Very quick and intuitive, no problem for people with eyes problem, too.

[jaapv]

Hmmm. From a commercial point of view the professional market seems to me to be rather insignificant compared to the volume of turnover that can be generated from the amateur market, especially for a company of the type of Leica. If I had to sell cameras for a living my main interest in professional users would be with high profile pros for advertising purposes.

[jaapv]

1) We do not talk about school here, but about market.

 

2) I see opponents of EVF & Leica - ONLY ON THIS FORUM. All people I know - who are interested in EVF and mature to forget size and all disadvantages of mirrors - want ONLY ONE, not thirty things - FF EVIL. And If that would use LEICA glass - uhmmm ;-)

 

Also - most of misunderstanding of current, latest generation EVILs - are also coming from people who know what dSLRs are, and think they know what EVIL is without spending some time with cameras like G1 or E-P2 with its EVF. This is causing most misunderstanding.

 

PS: will dSLRS still be produced in 10 years horizon? YES. Mostly for professional photograhers, eg. making sport photos. Why companies would still produce them? Prestige. 90% of consumers (who bring most of profit) - will be more happy with smaller, lighter systems.

I don't see many members on this forum being opposed to EVIL cameras. They may not want to use them for themselves, but why should a company -any company- not build a camera that can be sold:confused:. The objections are to grafting the technology on the existing rangefinder design, as that would leave a considerable number of users without the type of camera they would like to have. So- by all means let Leica build an E(vil) series camera if there is a market, let it use any mount they like, M, R or something else, but do not mix the concept into the existing M series. I have seen very few posts of traditionalists saying or implying anything else.

[lct]

...Very quick and intuitive, no problem for people with eyes problem, too.

True with AF but too slow for manual focusing, Jerry. It is a real problem for Leica users like me who could be temped to use their M or R lenses on those EVILs.

[lct]

...So- by all means let Leica build an E(vil) series camera if there is a market, let it use any mount they like, M, R or something else, but do not mix the concept into the existing M series. I have seen very few posts of traditionalists saying or implying anything else.

Sorry to repeat at nauseam but why not a clip-on EVF in lieu (or in excess) of current optical viewfinders? Those who don't like that would not buy it, those with focusing problems would be happy and we could even tell Frank that it is an electronic Visoflex! Just kidding Frank. Stronger than me.

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[jaapv]

It would be a good idea, if the camera that it clips on to would not need to be designed for it. The sensor would need to be live-view capable, there would have to be extra circuitry, etc. That would mean an extra compromise in the sensor choice which would give the camera a different bias in the image rendering and it would add to the price, especially on a small-series mainly hand-built camera. It would be far more rational to build two different cameras, the outer shell could be similar-looking though. Two cameras would be cheaper to develop too, as the M series is a ripened design and the EVF camera would rely heavily on third-party suppliers. I would not mind a modern, full frame, Digilux 2 successor with interchangable lenses. (Which is something different from a tarted-up Olympus )

[stunsworth]

Where the "compromises" are if it is implemented as a clip-on accessory EVF?

 

Power consumption, noise due to the sensor warming, shutter lag, slow manual focusing come to mind.

 

As I have said elsewhere I have tried manually focussing with M lenses on my GF-1 and it has not been a productive experience - especially when they are used wide open. Maybe others have had more success than I have, and maybe an EVF will be clearer than the screen on the back of that camera, but I found using a 50mm Summicron to be a very, very, slow process - almost to point of it being useless - and even using the magnified view I'd guess I had a less than 50% success rate in terms of focussing accuracy.