Making a M10 Macro & Telphoto friendly - a modern Viso or whatever

[sandro]

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I have been reading this thread with admiration for those who have kept on trying to explain the logic of perfectly normal things, that is that photography has developed in several direwctions with great results, but that the Leitz Visoflex is no longer part of those developments. It reminded me of a talk I had as a kid with the driver of a rally car, around 1970. It was a VW Beetle and they had put a Porsche engine in it. I asked the driver how he liked it and he said he loved it, but he also said he should have never tried to do this. The Beetle wasn't built for a Porsche engine (it didn't really fit in actually), not was it designed to win rallies with. During the rally it was outrun by real Porsches and many other cars. That is how I feel about the Visoflex. Someone gave me a Visoflex III six months ago and I love it, but it has little or no relevance for modern photography. That I have fun with it has everything to do with the fact that it is something from the past. But photography in general would be in pretty bad shape if people still had to rely on clumsy machines like the Visoflex, no matter how much electric circuitry one would stuff inside it. Historically it is interesting (and most of us probably like) that Leitz ever tried to consider their M-camera's as part of a huge system that could cover all aspects of photography. It would kill Leica however when they would try to revive such a concept again.

Enjoy the M-camera's for everything they are but don't demand more from them then they are capable of. To use historical material is great fun but that does of course never indicate any relevance or demand in modern photography.

Lex

[rosuna]

Steve all of the numbers are annual sales. I am saying the following:

1. Annual sales for the M8 was about 25000 in the first year, then 12000 then in year two then 8000 in year three (although roughly 2000 was sold the next year). This suggests a fast ramp a fast decay and an average of 12000 annually.
   
2. The M9 looks like again it will ramp up quickly and may I guess sustain volume sales due to it being FF but for how long.?
   

 

Those are very interesting points. I think the shape of the M9's sales will be very, very similar.

 

The M9 has the same idiosyncrasies the M8 had, the price is very high and the camera has several shortcomings (performance at not so high ISO values...). The key improvement of the M9 with respect to the M8 is the size of the sensor. The potential customers are previous users of the M8 (but many will find the M9's improvements not worth the price difference), users of film Ms and new users for the M system, coming from other reflex digital systems (but the price is high).

[farnz]

Pete

 

I have lost the will to live, which for someone in my position is not helpful. But, it's not for the first time.

 

It's inevitable given the blinkered intransigence of some parties, who refuse to listen to reason and logic.

Andy,

 

I completely understand. What I find mind-boggling is the proponent's ability and apparent need to shift ground more quickly than a Haitian earthquake. "That's en-nertainment!"

 

Pete.

[stunsworth]

What I find mind-boggling is the proponent's ability and apparent need to shift ground more quickly than a Haitian earthquake.

 

One other thing to think about is that last year he said that Leica should stop all development of the M9 and concentrate their efforts instead on producing a Visioflex, as that alone could save the company. It was at that point that I realised the sun in Grasse must be stronger than I had thought.

[farnz]

One other thing to think about is that last year he said that Leica should stop all development of the M9 and concentrate their efforts instead on producing a Visioflex, as that alone could save the company. ...

Well who can argue with such 'accurate' insight?

 

Pete.

[redbaron]

It was a dark and stormy night when the following was overheard in a small village in the south of France.

 

"Quickly Igor, the storm is reaching its peak! Plug the lightning rod in, Igor!"

"Yeth Mathter. All your work ith about to end, Mathter. What will you call it, Mathter?"

 

"I will call it Frankenflex, Igor! Ahh ha ha ha ha! It will bring a revolution to the world of photography! Just look how well I grafted the body of the M onto the head of an SLR! Ahh ha ha ha ha! Never again will we need to buy a second camera if we need to use macro or tele lenses! Ahh ha ha ha ha!"

"It'th thuperb work Mathter. Look, the thtorm ith getting clother!"

 

ZAP!

 

"Look, Igor! It Lives! Ahh ha ha ha ha!"

"Mathter, Mathter! What ith it doing, Mathter?"

 

"Help, Igor! Get it off me! Aghhhhh! It hurts, it hurts!"

"Oh, Mathter! That mutht really hurt."

 

"Have your way with me, if you wish, Frankenflex, but you can't have the money in the vault."

"Oh Mathter, I don't think it wath withe to tell it about the vault. Look, Mathter! It hath broken the door off!"

 

"Stop it, Igor! Kill it, before it eats all the money! Noooooooooo!"

"Mathter, it ith out of control! What have you done, Mathter! It hath eaten all the money tho kindly left in our trutht by Leica! Mathter, Mathter!"

 

"The horror, the horror..."

[giordano]

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• I do not know who makes a 18mm to 200mm zoom lens that can deliver any reasonable level of quality (Please advise)

There is no 18-200 that matches the best prime lenses or shorter-range zooms across its range. But the best of them are now quite good enough for many professional uses (including news and magazine work) where light weight, versatility and low cost are the key factors. E.g. the AFS-Nikkor 18-200 mm f/3.5-5.6 VR G ED DX.

• Best DSLR's will offer tilt shift 24mm upwards as you suggest. I guess you are referring to lenses such as the PA- Curtagon -R f/4 35mm of old ....
  
  • Personally I see that as something architectural photographers may want, and they would probaly want it on a Linhoff! or Hasselblad
    
  • Basically I do not see the absence of such a lens within a Leica M10 / Next Gen Viso adapter being an issue at all.
    
  • It would lose virtually zero sales I think. ..if anyone sees this as a huge market please advise, I am intrigued.

 

Camera movements are essential for serious photography of buildings and for some product and landscape photography. They're handy for lots of other things. And the availability of good, wide, tilt-shift lenses is definitely one aspect of what you claimed the M10/FrankoViso would deliver, namely "the best" of DSLR photography.

 

It's not a huge market - but (a) the people who buy these lenses are exactly the kind of demanding-the-best, passionate-about-quality photographers that would be the key market for the FrankoViso, and ( having a tilt-shift lens in the line (preferably several) is one of key things that signals that a "system" camera is a credible professional tool. I'm not the only one here who wouldn't buy into a system without them.

[jaapv]

But wouldn't such photographers buy either a D3X or a medium format system?

[Guest BigSplash]

One other thing to think about is that last year he said that Leica should stop all development of the M9 and concentrate their efforts instead on producing a Visioflex, as that alone could save the company. It was at that point that I realised the sun in Grasse must be stronger than I had thought.

 

Steve I never said that...or anything like that. I was pushing towards camera devt.

 

I said that Leica should be focussing the devt of M10 and should introduce it 10/10/10 just as M9 sales most likely will start to slowly decline . I believed then and now that they need to keep the cash cow M alive and widen their niche.

I suggested to widen the niche that thye return to being a system camera that can shoot macro or telephoto for example. If the niche can be widened in other ways fine.

 

I was derided and told that the M9 was the ultimate camera and that it may well be the last M...Some people even said that it could not be improved. Others said that if there was an M10 it would surface in 3 years.

 

People suggested that using some small effort towards building a high tech Viso would bankrupt Leica.

These same people actually never explained how Leica stays healthy if M9 sales decline as M8 did. They never explained that since Leica client base is basically M film users that have gone digital Leica is serving a very finite market that will eventually dry up. ...unless Leica do something to attract new users. If they do not think and plan for growing the M business in future as a business I see Leica getting into difficulties.

 

Those that did not answer these questions do not believe in the S2, and have doubts about the X1. ..so replacing M cash cow with the new products according to these people is not a sure bet. I hope that they are as wrong about this just as they are about the need for Leica to grow the M digital business.

 

I did say last year that Leica should introduce an ability to allow macro and telephoto and suggested a high tech Viso as a way forward. I was told the R10 would provide that and that this was the way forward as the R10 was mainstream.

After the Forum meeting in Solms the R10 was killed and the R lens stock was sold in bulk to SH Photo. The R was no longer main stream.

Stefan Daniel mentioned at the Solms meeting that R lens owners and M owners wil be able at some point to enjoy a device that will allow macro and telephoto and standard lenses...he hinted that it would be based on EVIL...and I received many comments that maybe there was a need for a device of the type I mentioned to address macro and telephoto and EVIL was the way forward.

 

The bulk of people have a hangup on the 40 year old designed Viso, love mirrors in SLR's and do not like EVIL technology.....they cannot get their minds around an adapter with a mirror in it.

[Guest BigSplash]

There is no 18-200 that matches the best prime lenses or shorter-range zooms across its range. But the best of them are now quite good enough for many professional uses (including news and magazine work) where light weight, versatility and low cost are the key factors. E.g. the AFS-Nikkor 18-200 mm f/3.5-5.6 VR G ED DX.

Camera movements are essential for serious photography of buildings and for some product and landscape photography. They're handy for lots of other things. And the availability of good, wide, tilt-shift lenses is definitely one aspect of what you claimed the M10/FrankoViso would deliver, namely "the best" of DSLR photography.

 

It's not a huge market - but (a) the people who buy these lenses are exactly the kind of demanding-the-best, passionate-about-quality photographers that would be the key market for the FrankoViso, and ( having a tilt-shift lens in the line (preferably several) is one of key things that signals that a "system" camera is a credible professional tool. I'm not the only one here who wouldn't buy into a system without them.

 

John I accept your point that a 18 to 200mm zoom if it is adequate for pros is going to kill a certain segment of the market for a Viso. Clearly these pros will buy a DSLR and permanently keep the zoom fitted.....why ever use any other lens if the quality is adequate?

 

I also accept that a tilt- shift lens is a need for serious architectural photos. However I have doubts that a 35mm format is adequate either. In any case I do not see this as a big market segment lost for the Viso out of the annual 11.2Million units of high end DSLR or am I wrong? I am only suggesting an extra 0.2% market gain for Leica M, which would double their business !

[Guest BigSplash]

It was a dark and stormy night when the following was overheard in a small village in the south of France..........

 

"The horror, the horror..."

While it was night and winter in the South of France we looked to our friends in other parts.......Here it was Summer, daytime, and our hero was upside down on a beautiful beach with the great white patroling the coast.etc etc etc

 

Our friend took his cheap, bulky, and heavy DSLR with his permanently attached zoom lens and took images as he downed another cold one knowing that his images would be acceptable to his editor. He needed another cold one as the bag was heavy as he toiled to get his passable snap shots keeping his camera on auto everything.

 

Then a gorgeous, slim, European lady photographer arrived carrying a simple lightweight camera with several lenses in her handbag. My gosh the images are super said the editor you surely did not do these with such a small camera? The editor loves the image quality and differentiated framing that she used.

Can you manage to do Telephoto shots if needed ....NO she said!

[Guest BigSplash]

Those are very interesting points. I think the shape of the M9's sales will be very, very similar.

 

The M9 has the same idiosyncrasies the M8 had, the price is very high and the camera has several shortcomings (performance at not so high ISO values...). The key improvement of the M9 with respect to the M8 is the size of the sensor. The potential customers are previous users of the M8 (but many will find the M9's improvements not worth the price difference), users of film Ms and new users for the M system, coming from other reflex digital systems (but the price is high).

 

It seems we agree on this......so how does Leica address life after M9?

 

I have suggested that Leica build the high tech Viso introduce Telphoto and Macro lenses with a view to gaining 0.2% share and appealing to clients that want a system camera and an ability to cover the range 560mm to 16mm plus macro.

 

If they dont do something to widen their niche and reduce their prices how can they keep the only cash cow they have healthy?

 

I believe we shall see the first shock waves when they realise that the healthy backlog and sales forecast gets real as double orders for delinquent product gets cancelled. I have had that experience and it is very unpleasant when salespeople have given every assurance since months that their orderbook is solid!

[andybarton]

I'd heard that Mills and Boon were making a come-back, but I didn't believe it until now

 

pass the bucket

[jaapv]

While it was night and winter in the South of France we looked to our friends in other parts.......Here it was Summer, daytime, and our hero was upside down on a beautiful beach with the great white patroling the coast.etc etc etc

 

Our friend took his cheap, bulky, and heavy DSLR with his permanently attached zoom lens and took images as he downed another cold one knowing that his images would be acceptable to his editor. He needed another cold one as the bag was heavy as he toiled to get his passable snap shots keeping his camera on auto everything.

 

Then a gorgeous, slim, European lady photographer arrived carrying a simple lightweight camera with several lenses in her handbag. My gosh the images are super said the editor you surely did not do these with such a small camera? The editor loves the image quality and differentiated framing that she used.

Can you manage to do Telephoto shots if needed ....NO she said!

 

 

The right approach there, Frank, is to move in and offer your humble Apo-Telyt 3/4-135, hoping she will ask for a real close wideangle. You wouldn't want to get further away from that gorgeous creature on the beach anyway . Meanwhile the DSLR user will be shooting seagulls for the BBC wildlife of the year award using his follow-object AF feature to get ten times the succes rate you are having with your bird

[jaapv]

It seems we agree on this......so how does Leica address life after M9?

 

I have suggested that Leica build the high tech Viso introduce Telphoto and Macro lenses with a view to gaining 0.2% share and appealing to clients that want a system camera and an ability to cover the range 560mm to 16mm plus macro.

 

If they dont do something to widen their niche and reduce their prices how can they keep the only cash cow they have healthy?

 

I believe we shall see the first shock waves when they realise that the healthy backlog and sales forecast gets real as double orders for delinquent product gets cancelled. I have had that experience and it is very unpleasant when salespeople have given every assurance since months that their orderbook is solid!

It seems you have found a soul mate in false assumptions - the M9 seems to be on a second wave of buyers at the moment - mainly DSLR users moving to rangefinder and analog M users. The reviews are only getting in now - nobody can foretell the future, but the general tone is such that they may well generate more demand. I don't see any slackening, by this time of the year 2007 the M8 was to be had of the shelf - the M9 still has a waiting list.

[Guest BigSplash]

It seems you have found a soul mate in false assumptions - the M9 seems to be on a second wave of buyers at the moment - mainly DSLR users moving to rangefinder and analog M users. The reviews are only getting in now - nobody can foretell the future, but the general tone is such that they may well generate more demand. I don't see any slackening, by this time of the year 2007 the M8 was to be had of the shelf - the M9 still has a waiting list.

 

I can believe that you are right as I know people who have ditched DSLR in favour of M9.

If we look at Year 1 Year 2 Year 3 Year 4

The M8 was roughly:: 25K 12K 6 +2KU (2KU)

M9 is perhaps: 25K 20K? 12K ? 6K?

 

...and then what? Why will people buy the M9 after that when it is deficient in basic capability v a DSLR?

The gap has narrowed due to the Tri Elmar WATE and if they reintroduce the MATE the gap will further narrow. It misses many things that many people seemingly want in a £5K camera and people here have no suggestions to close the deficiency gap.

 

These diehards use R lenses on a Nikon or Canon DSLR with a mickey mouse adapter that results in no AF, or auto AE ...etc and they ridicule my suggestion of a modern Viso with all the features in it.

 

I am all ears to hear specific ideas how Leica (who are enjoying a cash windfall currently)...how do they keep it that way!

[stunsworth]

These diehards use R lenses on a Nikon or Canon DSLR with a mickey mouse adapter that results in no AF, or auto AE ...etc

 

This is factually inaccurate. There is auto exposure on both Nikon and Canon bodies when using R lenses.

[jaapv]

I can believe that you are right as I know people who have ditched DSLR in favour of M9.

If we look at Year 1 Year 2 Year 3 Year 4

The M8 was roughly:: 25K 12K 6 +2KU (2KU)

M9 is perhaps: 25K 20K? 12K ? 6K?

 

...and then what? Why will people buy the M9 after that when it is deficient in basic capability v a DSLR?

The gap has narrowed due to the Tri Elmar WATE and if they reintroduce the MATE the gap will further narrow. It misses many things that many people seemingly want in a £5K camera and people here have no suggestions to close the deficiency gap.

 

These diehards use R lenses on a Nikon or Canon DSLR with a mickey mouse adapter that results in no AF, or auto AE ...etc and they ridicule my suggestion of a modern Viso with all the features in it.

 

I am all ears to hear specific ideas how Leica (who are enjoying a cash windfall currently)...how do they keep it that way!

Trust Leica to have at least some thinking power. Do you seriously entertain the thought that there is nothing going on regarding a future successor to the M9?

And, as a former CEO do you seriously expect a company to announce their thoughts on future product strategy to all and sundry -including the competition- years in advance?

And do you seriously think that Solms is the capital of Wolkenkuckucksland where evil visoflexes are hatched?

 

Btw, it is intereasting to see that your sources are so reliable that you seem to think that there were only 2000 M8-2s sold - I think there are more on this forum alone....

[stunsworth]

Do you seriously entertain the thought that there is nothing going on regarding a future successor to the M9?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the paper specification at least is in a pretty advanced stage.

 

I'd also expect, regarding the M9, that Leica may have considered the possibility that some people would put themselves on more than one dealer's list for an M9.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Guest BigSplash]

This is factually inaccurate. There is auto exposure on both Nikon and Canon bodies when using R lenses.

 

Are you saying that shutter priority is available (ie R lens diaphragm closes up / down with the motors that it does not have) That is what I meant. by auto exposure..as opposed to aperture priority which it obviously does have.