devermb Posted May 1, 2010 Share #1 Posted May 1, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Once Again, to the Patient, More Experienced Users: Still researching a $10,000 plus investment in an M9 and a lens. What are the differences between Summicron, Summilux, and Elmarit lenses for use on an M9? Are they worth the price? And the difference between "old" lenses and the lenses updated for digital use (I assume that the old lenses can fit onto the new M9 body). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 Hi devermb, Take a look here Differences between Summicron, Summilux, Elmarit Lenses. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted May 1, 2010 Share #2 Posted May 1, 2010 No problem and welcome to the forum The names refer to the f-stop of the lenses, so a Summicron is f2, a Sumilux is f1.4 and an Elmarit is f2.8. There is also the Noctilux, which is now f0.95. Each has its own character and the wider the aperture, the more expensive the lenses are (when buying new). Leica lenses are designed to be outstanding from their max aperture; one of the reasons why people like to use them wide open, so if you like a shallow depth of field, a Summilux or Noctilux is where you should be looking. Whether they are worth the money is something only you can judge. With very, very few exceptions, all M mount lenses from 1954 onwards with work on an M9. If you are new to Leica, you will be very, very pleased with a Summicron, and either a 35 or 50 would be a good place to start If you search in the Photo section here, or on Flickr, for the various lenses, you will see some of the characteristics of each. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted May 2, 2010 Share #3 Posted May 2, 2010 In the old days B.C. (Before Computers) a team of designers had to work for a year or more with pencil and paper to compute a new lens design. Really new designs -- that is, new optical layouts -- were correspondingly rare. A manufacturer who had a successful proprietary design, understandably, wanted to brag a little. So lenses got design names, like Zeiss Tessar, Schneider Xenar or Leitz Elmar (all very similar four-element designs, in fact). Which one was best? The discussions among the cognoscenti were endless. Remember, this was before MTF graphs. Ernst Leitz was one of the first European optical companies to develop and use optical C.A.D. techniques. This was before the middle 1950's. So, in the early years of that decade, Summicron and Elmar (and Summar and Summitar and Hektor) were still names of distinct designs. But around 1958 or so, Leitz changed over to using these names as speed designations, pure and simple: Elmar = around 1:4 Elmarit = 1:2.8 Summicron = 1:2 Summilux = 1:1.4 Noctilux = faster than 1.4 Add to that Summarit = 1:2.5 Still, "Elmar" was such an emotionally charged name that the new collapsible faster Elmar of 1958 got to keep the name -- it is a true Elmar design -- though its speed is 2.8. Even more, this lens had a modernised version, just discontinued, with the same name! But apart from that relapse into nostalgia, the names are just speed designations, superfluous, because the lens speed is also engraved on the front ring -- but they have developed into a solemn tradition. Do keep in mind that they are not quality or 'goodness' designations. BTW Carl Zeiss still call their lenses by names like Distagon, Biogon or Planar or Sonnar, but these have nothing to do with speed. They are actually nostalgic remains of design names -- though in most cases, it is very difficult to discern any similarity to the 'classical' Sonnar or Biogon designs of the 1930's. But in Oberkochen as in Solms, the old names sound good. "Should auld acquaintance be forgot" and all that. The old man from the Age B.C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolu Posted May 2, 2010 Share #4 Posted May 2, 2010 @Lars - wouldn't it be nice, if the lens name would still give a hint to the design and therefore characteristics of the lens? But apart from that: really ONLY speed designations? - May it be, that these are ALSO pruduct lines for the user's purpose? What do you think of Erwin Puts' classification for the CURRENT lens line: Summilux for best overall use, Elmar nowadays for ultimate performance (wheras in the past for good price/ performance relation, now taken over by the Elmarits), Summicron (once ultimate) getting squeezed in between, and Summarit for the budget oriented user. New lenses: analysis part 1 If this is correct, I'd like to see more Elmars to combine them with the Luxes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 2, 2010 Share #5 Posted May 2, 2010 ...What do you think of Erwin Puts' classification for the CURRENT lens line: Summilux for best overall use, Elmar nowadays for ultimate performance (wheras in the past for good price/ performance relation, now taken over by the Elmarits), Summicron (once ultimate) getting squeezed in between, and Summarit for the budget oriented user... I disagree. This kind of classification is purely subjective. To me, for instance, Lux is for low light, Elmar for good light and Cron for best overall use squeezed in between nothing at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted May 2, 2010 Share #6 Posted May 2, 2010 Summilux for best overall use, Elmar nowadays for ultimate performance (wheras in the past for good price/ performance relation, now taken over by the Elmarits), Summicron (once ultimate) getting squeezed in between, and Summarit for the budget oriented user No. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted May 2, 2010 Share #7 Posted May 2, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Are they worth the price? Interestingly no-one answered that yet.... Yes no doubt about it + they keep their value esp. if you buy second hand instead of new. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolu Posted May 2, 2010 Share #8 Posted May 2, 2010 No. Regards, Bill Well, very elaborate answer ... Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted May 2, 2010 Share #9 Posted May 2, 2010 Well, very elaborate answer ... Brevity can be a virtue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolu Posted May 2, 2010 Share #10 Posted May 2, 2010 Brevity can be a virtue. Definitely, but "no" is not an answer to the question "what". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted May 2, 2010 Share #11 Posted May 2, 2010 But Bill wasn't answering that question, he was responding to your suggestion regarding how the lenses ought to be ranked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolu Posted May 2, 2010 Share #12 Posted May 2, 2010 But Bill wasn't answering that question, he was responding to your suggestion regarding how the lenses ought to be ranked. But I didn't suggest any ranking. Each lens is a compromise for a different purpose. I put only a thesis of Erwin to discussion. A "No" is not really a discussion. If ICT says Luxes are for low light and Elmars for good light, he says nearly the same thing as me, when I want to combine Luxes with Elmars - Only difference - for me Luxes are not only for low light but also for shallow deapth of field. - If he thinks Elmars offer no advantage, why use them and not also the Luxes? - Strangely he still disagrees. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolu Posted May 2, 2010 Share #13 Posted May 2, 2010 ... Are they worth the price? ... Interestingly no-one answered that yet.... Yes no doubt about it + they keep their value esp. if you buy second hand instead of new. I agree 100% ! But value is a subjective matter you have to decide the product offers to you. From the production cost involved I'm convinced, the precision lenses they offer cannot be manufactured at a lower price by any (other) manufacturer. If Canon would use the same machines to grind some asph. surfaces for eight hours each, they would have the same cost. I have been visiting the Leica manufacture last week, having let my Luxes calibrated for my M9 at the custumer service. The spirit of precision can be felt anywhere and let them keep my M9 to calibrate the sensors position first, which was slightly out of tolerance. I'm not so sure, other manufacturers have such tight tolerance standards and would do this at their own cost. - Great service! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted May 2, 2010 Share #14 Posted May 2, 2010 I answered that question in the second post. I have emboldened the answer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted May 2, 2010 Share #15 Posted May 2, 2010 Clearly ones choice of lens really comes down to which colours are available and the finish of ones own camera, as I have learnt elsewhere on the forum. If one can put the colour issue aside then you are looking at max aperture as the relevance of the lens names. All lenses will draw differently, choose what suits you best in terms of speed/look/price and of course colour! There are no right or wrong answers and no pecking order for 'best' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 2, 2010 Share #16 Posted May 2, 2010 ...If ICT says Luxes are for low light and Elmars for good light, he says nearly the same thing as me, when I want to combine Luxes with Elmars - Only difference - for me Luxes are not only for low light but also for shallow deapth of field. - If he thinks Elmars offer no advantage, why use them and not also the Luxes? - Strangely he still disagrees. I did not say that Elmars offer no advantage dit I? I prefer my Luxes for low light and my Elmars for good light. Means that i would bring an Elmar 50 instead of a Lux 50 today for instance as the sun is shining where i stand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolu Posted May 2, 2010 Share #17 Posted May 2, 2010 I did not say that Elmars offer no advantage dit I? I prefer my Luxes for low light and my Elmars for good light. Means that i would bring an Elmar 50 instead of a Lux 50 today for instance as the sun is shining where i stand. That's why I think we agree. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted May 2, 2010 Share #18 Posted May 2, 2010 Well, very elaborate answer ... Regards Brevity, as Steve pointed out, can be a virtue. Let me expand, for your benefit. There is no need for a new taxonomy. "Rules of use" are something sought by inexperienced beginners who feel the need to have an imposed structure within which to work in order to make up for their lack of confidence. The classifications to which you refer are about as meaningless as using the terms "portrait" or "landscape" lens. Clear now? Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted May 2, 2010 Share #19 Posted May 2, 2010 Here, I agree completely with Bill. The old man from the Age B.C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolu Posted May 2, 2010 Share #20 Posted May 2, 2010 Brevity, as Steve pointed out, can be a virtue. Let me expand, for your benefit. There is no need for a new taxonomy. "Rules of use" are something sought by inexperienced beginners who feel the need to have an imposed structure within which to work in order to make up for their lack of confidence. The classifications to which you refer are about as meaningless as using the terms "portrait" or "landscape" lens. Clear now? Regards, Bill Well, I'm sorry, that you don't see, what I was up to. I didn't mention any rules of use or anything similar. Please don't put anything into my mouth. I only wanted according to the OP put to discussion Puts' thesis. Just to refer to the most obvious: Do you want to deny, that the Summarit-M product line is - as stated above - for the budget oriented user? ... or the great performance of the new 24mm Elmar? Leica as a company has to watch and work it's markets and create product lines, don't you think? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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