Can I be forced to delete my photo's? Shooting at the mall...

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Not sure where to post this but I had a very unpleasant experience today and am burning up about it.

 

I went to a local mall in NJ with my teenage daughter. I had my X1 with me and took a few snapshots at the mall.

 

While waiting for her, I was outside taking a few pictures when a mall security guard confronted me and asked me what I was doing.

 

He said they were watching me the whole time on video and were waiting to stop me!!

 

He demanded I delete the images..Which i did, knowing I can retrieve them. He then demanded ID for their 'data base'!!!

 

My daughter was with me and I didn't want to get her upset and gave him my id.

 

I am furious about this. I've searched the web for information regarding my rights and thought I would post it here to see if anyone could shed any information about what rights I might have or not have taking pictures in a mall.

 

There was no sign stating I could not.

 

I am very strongly considering going back tomorrow and doing it again but this time continuing to take pictures. and leaving when I am ready and simply refusing to comply with giving them any information or deleting my pictures.

 

Any information about what rights I may or may not have would be appreciated.

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[gwelland]

You might find this useful: Bert P. Krages Attorney at Law Photographer's Rights Page

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Thank you. Yes I found and read that as well as this

 

The Law For Photographers — Can I Use This Photo?

 

I cannot believe a mall security guard has the right to demand identification from me and force me to delete the images!!

 

I am seriously considering going back tomorrow and doing it again...Only this time continuing to shoot.

 

I think the 5D II with 35 1.4 might be faster than the Leica for this task, lol..

[andybarton]

Join the club

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/47709-advice-photographers-uk-my-fellow-criminals.html

[gwelland]

Ultimately they can ask you not to take photographs because you are on private property - ditto, ask you to leave. They don't have any rights beyond that, such as detention or forcing you to delete the images you already have.

 

The only difference between a mall cop and someone working at McDonalds is the uniform.

[PayPerView]

Ultimately they can ask you not to take photographs because you are on private property - ditto, ask you to leave. They don't have any rights beyond that, such as detention or forcing you to delete the images you already have.

 

The only difference between a mall cop and someone working at McDonalds is the uniform.

 

I thought so but since they did warn me and have my name I wonder if this has any effect on what they might be able to do.

 

These jackasses were all amped up about this. There must have been 5 guards on walkie talkies coordinating all of this. They were so proud .

 

They told me proudly how they actually SAW me enter the mall with my little X1 on a strap around my neck, as thought I as hiding it?

 

I want to be fully informed before I decide what to do. I am furious about this obviously.

 

I called the security office up and spoke to someone who gave me the name of the head of security and the mall management company. But I wonder if by speaking to them I can no longer assert that I was not aware of the rules..But of course more importantly are the rules legal?

 

What a complete joke.

[wilfredo]

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Interesting. Keep us posted but keep in mind that they were only protecting the homeland (I'm joking) It seems the Gestapo spirit lives.

[zlatkob]

Although malls are open to the public, they are usually private property. As a result, the owner can make the rules and there is probably no legally enforceable right to photograph there. At the mall, you basically have the "right" to shop. You may want to check with the mall's owner as to what their actual rules are. It's possible the security guards are making up new rules, but it's also possible that photography is not allowed.

 

If you want legal advice, you have to seek out a knowledgeable attorney. You can't rely on a camera forum. Perhaps there are some precedents in NJ that you can rely on, but perhaps not. The memory card is your property and I doubt that anyone can legally compel you to delete it. But just going to the mall and continuing to photograph, especially after this incident, is likely to end badly and leave you even more angry and upset. They will likely call the real police and have you removed.

[zlatkob]

You might find this useful: Bert P. Krages Attorney at Law Photographer's Rights Page

 

The pdf on that linked page looks like a good general guide. Mr. Krages writes: "when a property owner tells you not to take photographs while on the premises, you are legally obligated to honor the request."

 

If he is correct, then "continuing to shoot" is not going to be a viable option at the mall. Cases that deal with photography on public property are not going to be of much help.

[ho_co]

P, a similar thing recently happened to me. There was only one mall security guard and after arguing with him, I just left. (He had used his radio to call the police by that time and he explained to them that he had an "old white male acting suspiciously" and needed help. I was impressed that he used the adverbial form instead of the adjective.)

 

In this case, I didn't share my name etc with him, and I didn't delete any images, but I invited him to follow me if he thought he had a case.

 

I don't know what the thing is with that kind of mind--"We've been watching you"--"We have you on tape." As you said, who cares?

 

The guy that's going to do you damage isn't the guy taking pictures in plain view in front of you, but I guess we give them something to shake a stick at.

 

 

As zlat said, in the US, pictures are allowed in public places; but if the owner of the 'public' place objects to photography, I think we're out. I wonder about that, though. If the guard's girlfriend wanted to take a picture of him on the job in his uniform, wouldn't he allow it?

 

And if I'm not allowed to take pictures, why aren't there signs posted to that effect?

[PayPerView]

Although malls are open to the public, they are usually private property. As a result, the owner can make the rules and there is probably no legally enforceable right to photograph there. At the mall, you basically have the "right" to shop. You may want to check with the mall's owner as to what their actual rules are. It's possible the security guards are making up new rules, but it's also possible that photography is not allowed.

 

If you want legal advice, you have to seek out a knowledgeable attorney. You can't rely on a camera forum. Perhaps there are some precedents in NJ that you can rely on, but perhaps not. The memory card is your property and I doubt that anyone can legally compel you to delete it. But just going to the mall and continuing to photograph, especially after this incident, is likely to end badly and leave you even more angry and upset. They will likely call the real police and have you removed.

 

I blew my best chance to react as it was happening today but was hamstrung by the fact I know my daughter would have been very upset with me making a scene.

 

In retrospect, without a doubt, knowing what I know now, I would have not deleted the files (I am recovering them now just on principal) but would have continued to take shots of the guard and left at my own speed to my car and driven away slowly...Undoubtedly they would have either blocked my car and had the police there in a heartbeat. I suspect the police would have been positively thrilled to enforce draconian measures and probably detain and threaten arrest.

 

Of this I have no doubt.

[redbaron]

I've been told off by mall security for taking pictures while tourists continued to shoot with their phones and little cameras around us!

 

If you really want to push the issue you could go back and start taking pics. I would have a friend nearby with a video camera, though. If you stand your ground all they can really do is demand you leave and then call the police when you refuse. Ignore them and see what happens. You might get hurt, but it could be worth it.

 

A good friend of mine, a police sergeant, got arrested by store security when he refused to open his bags for inspection when leaving a department store. He waited patiently, without saying a word, as is his right, until the police arrived. Then he identified himself, had the two security guards arrested for false arrest and unlawful imprisonment. Because he was totally compliant the police took their time getting to the job. The guards were later convicted in the criminal courts and he sued in the civil courts. Every 5 minutes in unlawful custody is worth so many thousands of dollars of compensation.

 

Another option would be to type up a letter of complaint stating that you will never shop in that mall again because of the way you were treated. It's fine to be told that the mall owners don't allow photography, as is their right, but you were very poorly treated. The important thing is to hand deliver it to every shop in the mall.

 

One more option is to let the mall owner know what happened. Not the manager, but the actual owner.

 

Good luck! There is more than one way to skin a cat!

 

P.S. The above needs legal clarification from an expert in your jurisdiction prior to any action!

[gwelland]

For the record, a shopping mall isn't a public place, it's a private property and hence why they can ask to stop shooting and/or leave. However, that's all they can do.

 

They couldn't stop you from taking pictures of the mall from outside though, so long as you weren't on mall property at the time. That's the 'public' aspect of this.

[andybarton]

There was a long thread about this recently

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/barnacks-bar/117808-know-your-rights-photograph.html

 

I would urge people to read that before going through the same thought processes again. But please ignore any rudeness within.

[redbaron]

For the record, a shopping mall isn't a public place, it's a private property ...

 

It could well be both. Even privately owned property that is open to the public, for the use of the public, as the public is public space.

[gwelland]

It could well be both. Even privately owned property that is open to the public, for the use of the public, as the public is public space.

 

Nope. Afraid you're mistaken there. It may be a public space but it is subject to the property owners rules & regulations.

 

Also, thoughts that we live in the land of the 'free' here in the US are seriously misguided too.

[ho_co]

FWIW, we're not alone. A few days ago I saw the 2009 French-made movie on Robert Frank, "An American Journey" ("Un Voyage Américain"), screened by the Museum of Fine Arts Houston, which has distribution rights to a major part of Frank's photographic and cinematic work.

 

Frank was stopped in Alabama, I think. (It was definitely in the South, whatever the actual state was.) He was in his car. His car was loaded with camera equipment. He spoke with an accent. He smelled bad. All that was bad enough, but the officers also found him smart-alecky. So they arrested him.

 

After the chief of police read aloud the arresting officer's account of the arrest, he commented, "Well, you know, that was when McCarthy was making a racket and we all had to be alert against Communists. Something like that wouldn't happen today." He paused. "Well, maybe it could, after 9/11 and all."

 

Left-wing threat then, right-wing now. Plus ca change.

 

Be vigilant and off the pigs.

[redbaron]

Nope. Afraid you're mistaken there. It may be a public space but it is subject to the property owners rules & regulations.

 

Also, thoughts that we live in the land of the 'free' here in the US are seriously misguided too.

 

For the purposes of various laws, private property may still be classed as public spaces. For example, while a mall is privately owned it is illegal to use offensive language in that public place. If it were only private property, offensive language could not be an offence.

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[earleygallery]

Why don't you contact the landlords and complain to them about their misguided/untrained staff? At least try to ensure that the next photographer is treated correctly. Being the USA can't you issue a lawsuit for 'humiliation' or something?

[TimF]

FWIW, we're not alone. A few days ago I saw the 2009 French-made movie on Robert Frank, "An American Journey" ("Un Voyage Américain"), screened by the Museum of Fine Arts Houston, which has distribution rights to a major part of Frank's photographic and cinematic work.

 

Frank was stopped in Alabama, I think. (It was definitely in the South, whatever the actual state was.) He was in his car. His car was loaded with camera equipment. He spoke with an accent. He smelled bad. All that was bad enough, but the officers also found him smart-alecky. So they arrested him.

 

I remember reading about that incident recently - see here. It occurred in Arkansas. Frank was extremely lucky, as the officer involved, Lt RE Brown of the State Police had a bad reputation even amongst his colleagues.

 

"In recently released oral histories, one ex-trooper described him as 'hell on wheels'. Another said, 'It is possible he killed more men in the line of duty than anyone else in the State Police.' Apparently, it was not uncommon for him to beat prisoners with his belt. 'He was definitely someone you did not want to fool with,' Trooper Ray Carnahan recalled."

 

As for the original question, here in the UK the police can not make you delete pictures on your card without a court order. To do so would count as destruction of evidence if the thing ended up in court.