M8-Learning RF focusing and the results...OUCH!

[bmc]

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had some really nice light so we pulled out the m8 and shot 100 frames or so. the whole set up is new to me ( 2 to 3 months now) and this was another one of those sessions where i got my hat handed to me. man, i got some nice moments but not a single frame in focus.

part of the reason i was not in the right spot with the focus is due to being so wide open, and part was due to the fact that it is almost impossible to get a 7 year old to hit a mark with a ball and also time the pup jumping. the key to this shot was getting the bounce and the pup in the right spot at the same time, and at 2.8 i had about a 2 foot margin of error. oh well, still had some fun, and when it does get dialed in we should have some good results.

 

i must like pain, since i had way more fun shooting these lousy shots than i did with any of my DSLR's or PS cameras of past.

 

shot 50mm cron, iso 320 f2.8 (trying to go for the selective focus on the pup)

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[giordano]

What a waste of space. Anyone can take out-of-focus pictures, but you're the first who wants to share them with the world. Please show us your successes, not your failures - and post them in the Photo forum, not here.

[marknorton]

I agree there's not a lot in focus here at all.

 

I have to confess I've never been able to train dogs to understand the concept of zone focussing and depth of field, they just go after the ball with a reckless disregard to my needs as a photographer.

 

Keeping focus on a dog coming towards you in a high state of excitement is going to be difficult no matter what.. You might preset focus to create a workable focus zone and then concentrate on getting the dog to do its antics in the right place.

[Gerard]

BMC; looks to me like you had enough distance between yourself and the subject to knock out some shots using a zone focus technique. Put M8 in Auto ISO and Aperture Priority, guestimate the distance between you and the subject and dial that into the focus scale on the lens, then adjust aperture ring to give you a depth of field that allows for a loose/rough focus.

 

At f2.8 you need to dial the focus in pretty sharply; f8 will be more forgiving. Time to get some more practice in and prove any doubters wrong.

[WigglePig]

What a waste of space. Anyone can take out-of-focus pictures, but you're the first who wants to share them with the world. Please show us your successes, not your failures - and post them in the Photo forum, not here.

 

Mmmm, constructive.

[ottocrat]

What a waste of space. Anyone can take out-of-focus pictures, but you're the first who wants to share them with the world. Please show us your successes, not your failures - and post them in the Photo forum, not here.

I guess you just looked at the photos and not at the accompanying text?

 

@ bmc - looks like you didn't have enough light in that situation, really the only way to make session like that work is to go with f/11 or higher, 1/125s or faster, zone focus, pray there's enough light and shoot. The M8 just isn't made for capturing energetic kids and dogs in anything other than full sunlight really.

 

Alternatively, turn the motion blur into a feature.

 

[mhoersch]

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bmc,

in your first image there seems to be nothing at all in focus; you seem to have been ca. 10 feet away from the girl, and yet nothing is in focus from the ground in the foreground to the trees in the background. This is very strange even at f 2.8.

 

In your third image a small strip of ground in the foreground seems to be in focus, everything else is out of focus.

 

If you could manage to focus even roughly on the subject, I would expect either the subject or something one, two, or three feet in front of or behind the subject to be in focus - but not the whole image out of focus.

 

It may sound silly, but: you should start focusing by turning the focus ring from infinity to the subject distance (10 to 15 feet?), not from close-up. Otherwise the two little white rectangles in the viewfinder may seem to overlap alright - but the image is completely out of focus! This is the only way I can imagine producing images that much out of focus. Try it with a non moving subject and see for yourself. Hope that helps.

[JEFS]

I suspect the first image is motion blur and not a focus error. You were probably using a low shutter speed.

 

The other advice for zone focusing is best. Even with a D700 which has one of the best AF systems that you can buy, I usually just zone focus. Old habits.

[epand56]

BMC, I understand your frustration that even after two and a half years of M8 use is sometime mine.

 

I think you just have to practice with focus starting from less dynamic subject. Other had already told you about the depth of field. The M8 is not a big, quick, heavy autofocus DSLR, so it is generally intended for a less unrestrained kind of pictures. But if you look at the pictures that member melissah shot to jumping skaters you will see that nothing is impossible to this outstanding camera.

It really took me some time to get definitely tuned with my M8 camera.

[!Nomad64]

Dear BMC,

 

the reasons are already in your words. The whole set is new to you. You have a past history with auto-everything DSLRs.

With any RF camera - not the M8 only - it is of essential importance that you know your tool and the techniques that make it working, i.e. you must learn to think with your own head rather than delegating everything to any Nicanon engineer. Exposure, focusing, choice of speed. My respectful suggestion is that you first go back studying a photographic technique manual, possibly an older one, those still explaining things such as depth of field, shutter speed, aperture, film speed and the alike. Chances are that you only heard of these basic concepts, but never dug into. It doesn't mean whether your camera is digital or not, the basics are the same.

Then, as wisely suggested before, get familiar with your camera with subjects easier to catch. Train with composition, learn to see it in a new way as RF are very different from reflex cameras. Get used to a new way of focusing. Once you'll master it you'll discover that it makes things easier than focusing with a reflex. In a Zen mockery I'd recommend to practice the art of focusing without focusing. Namely, guess a distance interval in which your subject will be, and have it fall within depth of field marks on the lens you'll be using. Then shoot caring after framing and not refocusing. Just remember that with the M8 acceptable d.o.f. limits are within the marks of an aperture less than the one you're actually using.

With time learn to evaluate light and to choose appropriate speed. No matter what they say, the M8 allows you to produce usable files at speeds up to 1,250 ISO. A bit grainy, but pleasantly retro looking.

And the most important thing, don't get discouraged by lousy results. All of us were beginners once. Be your judge. Be sincere to yourself. Try the 1 out of 10 selection method, i.e. save only one image out of a batch of ten. Discard the other nine, but care to understand why.

 

Enjoy,

Bruno

[bmc]

thanks again to all that replied. some really good tips to help me learn how to use this set up correctly. im glad a few of you did not think it was a waste of space, as that was not my intention, but rather was looking for some constructive pointers. thanks to all that donated.

 

as for the first frame, i think that was shot at 160, and with the light 1/15 or so and i believe that is mostly camera shake.

 

interesting that one of you picked up on a sliver of ground that was in focus, the experience that it takes to recognize that amazes me. thats exactly what i was doing. i was focusing on a leaf on the ground where i guestamated the dog would be (the spot where i thought the action would happen) then i simply framed the photo and snapped away.

 

i did play with increased f stop to help with the focus zone, but did not think of the auto iso feature, so at 320 almost everything was blurry do to long exposure times.

 

im still learning this thing and i have no idea how you captured the girl moving yet kept the surrounding structure so sharp. maybe a tripod will help, but i move around a lot when i shoot.

 

you all gave me some great pointers, now off to do my homework!

 

a few shots from the session that i think were in focus. i think i got the focus thing down when things are not moving.

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[Luke_Miller]

I recently returned to Leica with the purchase of an M8.2. My first Leica was an M4 in the 70s. Since then I had been shooting with SLRs/DSLRs, So I had a steep learning curve as well. Here are a couple of things I have learned (or re-learned) that might be useful.

 

I need to keep my finger off the small window on the far right side of the body. That window illuminates the RF patch and fingerprints (or the finger itself) make focusing a real challenge.

 

Since I now have "mature" vision I need a correction lens on the viewfinder to see clearly. Getting the proper amount of correction has made a huge improvement.

 

Most of my Leica experience in the past was with a lens with a focus ring tab. I find I focus faster (but not any more accurately) with my 28mm Summicron (which has a tab) than with my 50mm 'cron which does not. Probably unique to me.

 

I tend to use the 28 Summicron most since its greater DOF is more forgiving of focus errors.

 

For active subjects I tend to stop down and zone focus, since I find that trying to manually focus track a moving subject is a good way to miss the shot altogether.

 

Still learning, but the images my M8.2 and the Summicrons produce make the journey worthwhile.

[ottocrat]

i have no idea how you captured the girl moving yet kept the surrounding structure so sharp.

It was a 15mm lens handheld at 1/30s - fast enough to be sharp handheld, slow enough to blur movement (especially a toddler at speed).

 

Most of my Leica experience in the past was with a lens with a focus ring tab. I find I focus faster (but not any more accurately) with my 28mm Summicron (which has a tab) than with my 50mm 'cron which does not. Probably unique to me.

Not unique to you.

[bmc]

Dear BMC,

 

 

And the most important thing, don't get discouraged by lousy results. All of us were beginners once. Be your judge. Be sincere to yourself. Try the 1 out of 10 selection method, i.e. save only one image out of a batch of ten. Discard the other nine, but care to understand why.

 

Enjoy,

Bruno

 

great advice, and actually everything i have been doing. again, so far its all be study and these are just a few of my practice shots. im still a little vague on reading light, and even though i am spot on at guessing distances when i am working in the field, for some reason i am having a hard time pinning down distances to subjects with regard to my leica lens. as for culling photos i am trying to be ruthless. it is so great to hear your suggestions because it lets me know i am on the right path and i just need to keep picking away at it, and what i dont get i need to re-read or study. thanks again.

 

its funny this little black camera never leaves my side and i am having so much fun, regardless of the results.

[shootinglulu]

These forums are for sharing are experiences and learning and i really like your post and shots. It's good that you are enjoying using the camera in the first place rather than fretting over the perfectly caught in focus picture which in my view will evolve naturally after many shots. And creative feelings and thoughts are much more important anyway. I was way too uptight about the camera when i started using it a year ago but once i got to the point where you seem to be now, i started learning.

Enjoy!

[!Nomad64]

These forums are for sharing are experiences and learning and i really like your post and shots. It's good that you are enjoying using the camera in the first place rather than fretting over the perfectly caught in focus picture which in my view will evolve naturally after many shots. And creative feelings and thoughts are much more important anyway. I was way too uptight about the camera when i started using it a year ago but once i got to the point where you seem to be now, i started learning.

Enjoy!

 

Dear BMC,

 

you're welcome. I couldn't have written a better reply than Shootinglulu's one. That's exactly what I feel. From your words I understand you're already headed in the good direction. Keep trying, keep learning, keep improving. And never forget that you take pictures for the love of it, not for frustration.

I'd also quote as further advice the words from a National Geographic photographer, Joe McNally: "Shoot what you love". That's the best possible starting point and track to follow.

Don't be afraid to ask for help or advice. That's what forums and communities are for. It's easier to grow with the help of someone else rather than doing all by oneself. Especially here there's plenty of expert ladies and gentlemen users from whose words and pictures I learned a lot.

 

Enjoy,

Bruno

[wstotler]

man, i got some nice moments but not a single frame in focus. . . . part of the reason i was not in the right spot with the focus is due to being so wide open, and part was due to the fact that it is almost impossible to get a 7 year old to hit a mark with a ball and also time the pup jumping. (trying to go for the selective focus on the pup)

 

Nice attempts and thanks for posting.

 

Suggestion: Pre-focus on an object on the ground and wait for the subject to hop the line--you're better off focusing on "ground trash" at given intervals and waiting for the subject to cross that line instead of trying to "track" the subject with focus. Pick different ground trash for each shot, based on the rhythm of what's happening. My experience, anyway. If I'd have been in a similar situation, I'd have focused on the circled item in the attached photo and waited for the pup to hop the line. And so on. Lots of missed shots. But I'd get many good ones, also.

 

Also. . . .

I think you just have to practice with focus starting from less dynamic subject.

 

I respectfully disagree. To learn more about shooting moving targets (and strategies such as pre-focusing), you have to do it. Get your nose bloodied and raise your technique so that doesn't happen any longer.

 

My personal favorite at the moment for practice is to put one of my kids in a swing, crank down to f/1.2, f/2, or f/2.8 (depending on lens), start the swing, and then practice timing my shots as the kid swings back and forth into and out of the plane of focus. . . . It is maddening, but improvement is guaranteed if you keep at it. E.g., ratio of bad to keeper shots improves.

 

The attached example is strictly a practice shot--Elmar-M 50mm at f/2.8--not intended for any form of use other than snapshotting for practice.

 

BTW, we had a great thread on this issue over here. Here's my response:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/99742-focussing-tips.html#post1050857

 

Good luck!

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[dcuthbert]

What a waste of space. Anyone can take out-of-focus pictures, but you're the first who wants to share them with the world. Please show us your successes, not your failures - and post them in the Photo forum, not here.

 

Christ John, wife made you sleep on the couch last night to warrant that response? Give the person a break, offer constructive points and not some waffle like that.

 

This forum has some old farts on it, but you've just won the comfy armchair award sunshine

[ottocrat]

My personal favorite at the moment for practice is to put one of my kids in a swing, crank down to f/1.2, f/2, or f/2.8 (depending on lens), start the swing, and then practice timing my shots as the kid swings back and forth into and out of the plane of focus. . . . It is maddening, but improvement is guaranteed if you keep at it. E.g., ratio of bad to keeper shots improves.

 

The attached example is strictly a practice shot--Elmar-M 50mm at f/2.8--not intended for any form of use other than snapshotting for practice.

 

I'm impressed, this is the exact same method I've used and it's totally unforgiving, I haven't dared go down to 2/2.8... Lovely photo of your little chap too!

 

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[karl101]

Yes, pre-focus to where you think the animal will be, and take your picture at that point. Simple ;-) Cats and Dogs tend to do the same things when conditions remain the same, if your child can throw the ball constantly, you should get at least three chances to get the shot before the animal gets bored.

 

For this of Brian The Cat, the camera was about 1.5m away, using a 35mm Summicron at f4 (I think), and using a flash to get a no blur still frame. I had the camera on a tripod and used a remote cable to trigger the camera, this made it easier for me to time the shot.

 

Karl.