New overgaard page - Leica M9 in Los Angeles and Leica M9 "best practice"

[RockyIII]

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Thanks for sharing your experience and wonderful photos.

 

Rocky

[Overgaard]

Excellent reading, as usual, and remarkable images to illustrate it.

 

However, I had one of those "read but not understood" moments towards the end (maybe because I didn´t drink vodka...).

 

Thorsten, you talk about compression of DNG files, and state: "...don't use Adobe's offer of saving space by compressing your DNG files. You don't want that because one day you will get to experience that no one supports reading those compressed DNG files. The compression in the Leica M9 is not the same as the Lightroom compression."

 

They´re different algorithms, no doubt, but why should the risk of Adobe´s own algorithm running out of support be bigger than for Leica´s own algorithm? After all, DNG is Adobe´s own child, and Leica´s method is a non-standard addition.

 

Besides, Adobe´s compression is lossless; Leica´s isn´t. Whether this is important for real life images, I don´t know; there are totally conflicting opinions out there. I haven´t had the time to really compare them in a controlled but still realistic manner.

 

Thorsten, I see your own answer is i the last sentence of that paragraph: "...It makes the camera faster and I can't tell the difference...". Likely then, I won´t be able to see the difference either, and suddenly doubling the capacity of my SD card collection would be a bonus indeed (speed has been no problem for me). Only, if I go this way, do I really INCREASE the chances that my files would remain readable with future software?

 

I think the short answer is that the Adobe compression is an Adobe exclusive format that only Adobe understands (not Aperture or others) why, if that is chosen, you're stuck with Adobe. And if Adobe stops supporting their compressed format - for whatever reason - you're without translator of those files. That's how I've understood it so far, anyone know more or more precisely, please correct.

And Adobe will compress files for harddrive savings, and unpack them for editing and preview within Lightroom and other Adobe applications.

 

The Leica compression is a timesaver in the Leica M9 and those files can be read by Aperture, Adobe and all (my guess is it's just smaller 8 bit DNG files but with the same architecture as the 14 bit DNG).

[elgenper]

OK, understood. So the potential problem with Adobe´s compression isn´t primarily that NO software might be able to read it in the future; rather that it isn´t part of the open DNG standard, and thus will lock the users into Adobe SW (excluding, say, Aperture, Capture One, Light Zone & c), which will presumably keep supporting it, or Adobe would face a storm....

 

I´ve never used LR´s (i.e. Adobe´s) compression; it´s only compression after the fact, and HD space is cheap. I did use the built-in M9 compression on a week-long trip, and I couldn´t see that I lost anything IQ-wise, but as long as I haven´t run or seen any conclusive tests, I returned to uncompressed for everyday use around home.

 

With another trip approaching, I´d better get around to some testing.....

[rob_w]

I think the short answer is that the Adobe compression is an Adobe exclusive format that only Adobe understands (not Aperture or others)

 

Hmmm ... thanks for bringing up this point. If it is true that Adobe's compression cannot be read by anyone else, all of us would be foolish to use it. I have been experimenting with Adobe's DNG compression since an earlier thread contained strong recommendations in favour of it ("lossless" etc). But if we are locked in as a result then it must be time to take a step back.

 

Thorsten, have you tested this point and confirmed it is true?

 

BTW, like others, thanks for your article. Great to read about technique and options rather than gear and wishes.

 

Cheers

 

Robert

 

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[Overgaard]

Would love if someone could test and establish if the compressed Adobe works or not in other raw converters after compressed by Lightroom

[Rick]

Could one of the forum's better minds explain the chain of events in the M9 and computer that takes place when the file is compressed. For example, what is the bit size off the sensor and then when it is stored on the card uncompressed and then when in-camera compression takes place and then what Adobe is doing with the file and where in LR does this take place and anything else that needs to be understood about the file as it travels to the final destination of the hard drive. Why is compression in the M9 a problem if it is lossless or is it lossless?

[k-hawinkler]

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Could one of the forum's better minds explain the chain of events in the M9 and computer that takes place when the file is compressed. For example, what is the bit size off the sensor and then when it is stored on the card uncompressed and then when in-camera compression takes place and then what Adobe is doing with the file and where in LR does this take place and anything else that needs to be understood about the file as it travels to the final destination of the hard drive. Why is compression in the M9 a problem if it is lossless or is it lossless?

 

It's unfortunately lossy. Discussion can be found here:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/110293-dng-compressed.html

 

K-H.

[Rick]

Thanks K-H. Perfect link.

[k-hawinkler]

Another relevant thread http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/120983-m9-compressed-dngs-blackpoint-noise-levels.html discussing implications of using compressed or uncompressed DNG with regards to the M9 black point.

 

I definitely will stick with uncompressed DNG.

 

K-H.

[Chris_R]

Thorsten,

I have enjoyed all your website pages, but this is the most informative article yet. It really

gets to the simplicity that we want from M's but seldom see because we make it more difficult than it needs to be. The post processing part about something may be better but you will stick with LR, I agree that it is best to be good at LR or C1 or whatever than moving from one to another every other month. Thank you for the great images as well.

 

Cheers

Chris

[Overgaard]

Thanks Chris,

 

Let me know what you would like to know about LR and I'll see how it could be done. I just do what I do and that is often the hardest part to see what others would gain from knowing about. But I'll be happy to try to do a write-up on that part or any other people felt they wanted to know about.

[Simon Larbalestier]

Thorsten I've been following your articles for a while now they make great reading with an honest personal insight - look forward to reading the next update!

 

best

Simon

[rob_w]

Would love if someone could test and establish if the compressed Adobe works or not in other raw converters after compressed by Lightroom

Thorsten, I do not have any other raw processors installed on the laptop I am using while travelling, but as a quick check I can confirm that Mac OSX can read and display the Adobe compressed DNG.

 

Would still be interested to hear from someone who has C1 or Aperture, however.

 

Robert

 

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[Alnitak]

Thorsten, I do not have any other raw processors installed on the laptop I am using while travelling, but as a quick check I can confirm that Mac OSX can read and display the Adobe compressed DNG.

 

Would still be interested to hear from someone who has C1 or Aperture, however.

 

Robert

 

-------------------

 

I noodled this over a while back, and I did confirm with Aperture 2.x that I could open an M9 DNG compressed by LR. At the moment I'm traveling--actually I'm stranded in London due to the volcano--and the laptop I have with me does not have both Aperture and LR, so I can't confirm the case with LR 3 and Aperture 3. However, in the OS X world, raw formats are handled by the OS, not the application, so a better test would be opening a LR compressed DNG on another OS/platform.

 

Jeff

[rob_w]

Jeff, my sympathies. I just got back to London on the Eurostar last night after being stranded in Amsterdam for three days. Makes it sound simple -- but it took a succession of web sites, ticket offices, and train platforms, along with a hefty dose of patience, to make it all work. Heaven knows how you will get back to LA -- maybe via Spain (or Ireland if they open the airspace there first, as predicted)?

 

Like you, I only have the laptop with me so cannot test any other raw converters at this stage, but I would like to know the answer.

 

Cheers

 

Robert

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[Alnitak]

Jeff, my sympathies. I just got back to London on the Eurostar last night after being stranded in Amsterdam for three days. Makes it sound simple -- but it took a succession of web sites, ticket offices, and train platforms, along with a hefty dose of patience, to make it all work. Heaven knows how you will get back to LA -- maybe via Spain (or Ireland if they open the airspace there first, as predicted)?

 

Like you, I only have the laptop with me so cannot test any other raw converters at this stage, but I would like to know the answer.

 

Cheers

 

Robert

---------------

 

Thanks, Robert! I don't want too much sympathy, as I have the luck of having a place to stay, and I can go into work in our London office, but its frustrating not knowing when I can get home to see my wife and daughter. I was scheduled to leave Saturday, and then tomorrow, but if my flight doesn't go tomorrow it looks like this weekend. I have my fingers crossed!

 

Glad you could finally make it home. I am going to be traveling here several more times this spring and summer, so it could be interesting.

 

Jeff

[Fotomiguel]

Difficult situation. The volcano has stopped half world. If some of you are locked in an airport and you have your M9 with you, just relax and enjoy your camera. It happened to me some month ago. I was for two days in the airport because of very bad weather. My flight was canceled and I was long hours in the queue (one of them 8 hours) to get new fly. When I got it, then again canceled and then again. I was desperate. Thank Got I had my M8 with me and in the worst moments I relax myself trying some shots. Anyway I know that the situation now is much worst but in this kind of moments one has find a way of not going crazy and photography is always nice. I hope that all of you will be fine soon.

 

 

 

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[rob_w]

Lovely pictures, Miguel. Interesting to see what is possible when we are forced to stop and take the time. Unfortunately I did not have my M9 with me in Amsterdam. And how I wish I did have it, as I have passed through the city so many times on my way to somewhere else and at last I had a chance to pause and really look!

 

I guess we have wandered off-topic completely by now (sorry, Thorsten). Maybe we should start a new thread: "where were you when the volcano blew?" or similar ...

 

Cheers

 

Robert

[mby]

I noodled this over a while back, and I did confirm with Aperture 2.x that I could open an M9 DNG compressed by LR. At the moment I'm traveling--actually I'm stranded in London due to the volcano--and the laptop I have with me does not have both Aperture and LR, so I can't confirm the case with LR 3 and Aperture 3. However, in the OS X world, raw formats are handled by the OS, not the application, so a better test would be opening a LR compressed DNG on another OS/platform.

 

Jeff

 

Aperture 3 can work with Adobe-compressed .DNGs; BTW, there are some interesting threads on compression at the Adobe Labs Forum (like Adobe Forums: Question DNG and compressed DNG Version...).

 

Best,

Michael

 

P.S.: Hope you can fly back home soon, Jeff!

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[Alnitak]

Ahh, good news Michael. Regrettably my flight tomorrow was too early to make the limited window that Heathrow will be open, and the next open slot was Saturday. Now I have to hope that the volcano/weather cooperates on Saturday. Sigh. I wish I had my M9 with me!

 

Jeff