M9 - coincidence at infinity

[fenykepesz]

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb antigallican:

I don’t think IBIS could be implemented without new and much bigger lenses. The rangefinder in a Leica is also entirely manual. If you’d make the changes you want it would be another camera. I own and enjoy a Q which does all this, but it’s not an M and i can’t really compare it to my M9

i actually meant a sensor-based IBIS, so that would include quite some changes only for the M body, sorry about the confusion.  true, the M is a manual RF camera, and will hopefully stay one too in the future.  i am only suggesting this so that these 'manual' motion artifacts of the photographer can be accounted for such as tremor, heart beat, breathing etc.

what do we have then otherwise these modern high-res sensors for if their performance is killed by such unavoidable biological noise...?  and let's add to the list here other issues such as my misaligned RF system and my own self-made manual focusing errors...

(i had put the same comment in the M10 forum, where it should have belonged to in first place - owning an M10-D : see here ).

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by fenykepesz

[antigallican]

Thanks for the reply. I still think their design people will imagine this would drive away from the simplicity of the camera while the needs are covered by other cameras. Maybe I’m an old recidivist - I don’t even use my M9 on A!

[jankap]

On 1/16/2022 at 2:39 PM, fenykepesz said:

i actually meant a sensor-based IBIS, so that would include quite some changes only for the M body, sorry about the confusion.  true, the M is a manual RF camera, and will hopefully stay one too in the future.  i am only suggesting this so that these 'manual' motion artifacts of the photographer can be accounted for such as tremor, heart beat, breathing etc.

IBIS would make the camera some mm thicker. Something, that most(?) customers would not like. 

Do you see a difference, if you put your M10D on a tripod? Setting the time to 1/2f sec. So in case of a focal length of 50mm at 1/100 sec.

The M10D is not the very best instrument to check a rangefinder. You could try FastRawViewer to check it. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by jankap

[fenykepesz]

vor einer Stunde schrieb jankap:

IBIS would make the camera some mm thicker. Something, that most(?) customers would not like. 

Do you see a difference, if you put your M10D on a tripod? Setting the time to 1/2f sec. So in case of a focal length of 50mm at 1/100 sec.

The M10D is not the very best instrument to check a rangefinder. You could try FastRawViewer to check it. 

true, i assume too that IBIS would make the M body bigger.

Dankeschön !  i will have a look into FastRawViewer, thanks.

in any case, in terms of a future M version, i feel a hybrid OVF/EVF with focus peaking is more important and of higher relevance, at least in my opinion and considering the issues i had experienced over the years...but ask two doctors and you will get three diagnoses !

[fenykepesz]

so, i finally did the jump, got a 2mm Allen key, and turned on that roller cam of my M10D - then went out the back door to look at the moon, some stars, neighbours' windows, my wife's glass frames & face, then used a slightly more sophisticated setup with two tripods, a 45° angled ruler , shutter release cable and a strong flashlight - and voilà : i felt like born-again !  what a revelation !  i never ever got such sharp in-focus photos as long as i owned this beast and its lenses, for the last 3 years or so !  crazy - why didn't i do this months/years ago ?

i actually had to turn, just once, at quite an angle of some 30° counter-clock-wise following Julian Thompson's instructions from more than 10y ago - thank you, Julian !  i am pretty sure about the angle, it was something like an hour on a watch dial.  thereafter i also checked my other lens, and both Luxes perform now as they should.  hence the focus problem was entirely with the M body.

i was in the past twice at the local Leica store where folks thought all is fine, no need to send it in to NJ or Wetzlar.  luckily i followed at least that part of their advice and saved money of 5-600 USD and 6-12 weeks on down time.  but DIY for a dollar, the Allen key, and lots of reading, that was truly worth it - and on top of that i have now a somewhat better clue about the M's inner mechanics...

und nun dürft' man sagen : Ende gut, alles gut !  gell ?

[kuchars22]

My M240 was also back focussing - I have sorted out the infinity focus but still had back focus at close and intermediate distances. However, this is now sorted and from my experiences, this is what I found:

1. You need to determine if you have:
   1. a) minimum focus distance issue,
   2. b) infinity focus issue. As clearly described here, many of the issues can be fixed by sorting out infinity, then everything, in theory, falls into place nearer than infinity. I took my camera on Saturday to Aperture in London, and they said they only adjust the hex cam and never screw "A", but as you will later discover, this does fix any near-focus problems if you still have them.
2. You then need to determine if you REALLY DO HAVE either near or infinity focus! There were many mistakes and things I discovered during my hours of testing, and my conclusions were rapidly achieved once I bought the EV2 a few days ago. 
   1. You need to test at both the widest and smallest apertures at all your distances, as this greatly influences the results.
   2. I used an EV2 to achieve focus, and then confirming through the RF if the patch is aligned - several times I got focus on the EVF but not the patch alignment, but the final photo taken confirmed it was in fact in focus - so aperture/hyperfocal distance plays a key part in this. Other times I may have nailed focus both on the EV2 and patch, but I'd hate to think how you can do this quickly and reliably without the EVF or LV as a minimum. 
   3. So you may think shooting at the widest is the best method - The widest will not only demand the tightest tolerance of focus accuracy and patience, but also the softest, which may easily be translated into "out-of-focus", where in fact it's the characteristic or weakness of the lens. So if you think it's OOF at wide apertures, stop down and re-confirm. Likewise, having too small an aperture may bring your OOF patch into focus through hyperfocal distance.
   4. Lens may exhibit some sort of focus shifting - as I understand it, not all lenses, even from the same brand, may show the same linear response in terms of focus throw. Some lenses may behave differently than others at either end of the distance scale, whether by manufacturing tolerances, knocks or those now requiring maintenance. Those familiar with Canon DSLRs, perhaps others, included a "microadjustment" option in the menu, further supporting this tolerance.
3. Assuming you do have an issue, then go ahead and follow these steps to correct it. For me, the infinity setting resolved almost 100% of my problems. To fine tune, I ground the screwdriver blade down, unscrewed "A" slightly, then tightened it back up again, all with the hex key holding the cam in the same position as much as I could (as if I was going to do the infinity adjustment), I think somehow, holding the cam bolt in whilst unscrewing "A" had automatically and intentionally rotated the cam arm to the "correct" position - now it's all perfect!

I did have some of that black gum/adhesive/silicone-looking stuff on one side of the screw. It's actually soft and it didn't stop me from turning the screw. Good luck to those who need it!

 

[charlesphoto99]

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Yes, in the past when I adjusted my own rangefinder, it was never enough to only adjust the infinity hex as that threw out mid to near focus (for me). It took much trial and error to carefully adjust the infinity hex and the near screw to bring perfect focus at all distances. This was with the M8. RF cams might be improved since then so that more often it's just the infinity hex that drifts. I don't have the nerves for it anymore, though I do hate those months of downtime for something that probably takes Leica all of five minutes on their test bed to correct. 

[Adam Bonn]

My HUNCH (and I’ve adjusted the hex bolt a few times, also the vertical hex but never the ‘arm bolt’) is that it all rather depends on why your camera’s RF isn’t accurate.

Little bit of wear after years of use = hex bolt will probably fix it or close enough that user movement/subject movement/stop down focus shift/focus and re-compose will overrule any SLIGHT calibration issue anyway 

Camera not assembled to spec/camera at one end of spec, lens at the other end = you’re probably gonna have to fudge about a lot to diagnose and fix that… 

Camera previously adjusted incompetently = either one of the two above, good luck!

[Albertts]

On 13/4/2010 at 12:51, Julian Thompson said:

... Y ahora afloje el tornillo de cabeza ranurada en la leva del brazo principal y gire la leva ligeramente en sentido contrario a las agujas del reloj para acortar el brazo y aumentar la cantidad de enfoque disponible en la ventana del telémetro.

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Good morning.

 What screw is he?  What has to be loosened to do that?  It has a picture a Diagram... On an M3.  Just all your post is what happens to me.  Infinity is fine, close focus is way behind.  Thank you.

[gordec]

On 5/11/2020 at 9:16 AM, vwillrocku said:

Hi all forum members, this is my first post in the forum and I hope everyone is still fine. I am also new to Leica products and I get a second hand M10. After one month of usage my M10 is out of focus and after reading the whole 14 pages of this thread I still have 2 questions to see if anyone could help:

1. Infinity of my rangefinder is off. When using an allen key to turn the roller clockwise (when the camera is upside down), the arm doesn't move and it is easier to adjust. Doing anti-clockwise, the whole arm would move (I think it is the function of the arm?) and makes harder to adjust. So should I hold the arm with my fingers or let the arm moves to its end position, then make the roller adjustment?

2. If the infinity is correct and near focus still exists, from the information of this thread I can loosen the arm screw and rotate the arm anti-clockwise to shorten the arm. Is my understanding is correct? And how easy to loosen the screw of M10 as I heard M9 is quite hard because of the straight screw head rather than Phillips?

Thanks for your answer in advance.

 

For your part one, when adjusting counter clockwise, the arm moves in. When I tried it, I let it go all the way back and then adjust. I feel safer that way than I try to manually hold the arm and prevent it from moving back. Not sure if this is the right or wrong way. A lot more control when turning the hex tool when it’s all the way back in a hard stop.

[mdg1371]

Just followed the diagrams-- worked perfectly

[petard]

On 4/13/2010 at 4:21 PM, Julian Thompson said:

1) Infinity is very important. Step 1 is to look at something with lots of contrast a long way off (a star does seem to work very well but today I've been using a clock tower in the far distance and that's fine too) and then adjust the roller (

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so that this perfectly coincides. Don't accept the nonesense I was spouting before about it not mattering. It really matters that you can 100% converge the object at infinity.

I have back focus issues on my M9 with Summicron 35mm and wanted to adjust roller and arm to see if it helps. However I'm not sure if I'm doing this right and hope somebody can help. My understanding is infinity is correct when the focus tab is at the infinity mark and cannot be further turned. At the same time the image needs to be sharp on both rangefinder and computer. So at infinity I can point at far away object (>350m) and it is sharp automatically.

I started by turning the roller (B) a tiny bit counter clockwise. When turning the focus tab to infinity, the image is slightly out of focus. If turn the focus tab a bit back, the image becomes sharp in both rangefinder and on my computer. Now if I turn the roller a bit clockwise, infinity starts earlier if that makes. It looks ok in the rangefinder, but when I import the image it is out of focus. 

It seems I'm missing the sweet spot where infinity is set on the lens (focus tab cannot be further turned) and the image is sharp on both rangefinder and computer. Any advice to get the roller into the right infinity position?

Edited January 23 by petard

[fenykepesz]

it sounds to me as if both, the roller-cam as well as the arm-length are a bit out-of-sync (out of focus).  to cure that it involves a bit more fiddling with both screwdriver and allenkey.  but, before starting, wait and listen to other folks' comments as i may be wrong !

see also : Julian Thompson's brilliant explanations