Video mode on future M

[digitalfx]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I was under the impression that Leica is linked to the RED ONE and SCARLETT line; something about the PL series that rumors the involved of Leica's own, Andreas Kaufmann? (Needs confirming).

 

 

 

Leica has no connection or link to Red.

 

A set of fast (T1.3) PL mount primes (http://cw-sonderoptic.de/) have been announced and will ship shortly that are being produced by Leica. These lenses will work on any film or digital cinema camera including the Red One, Scarlet and Epic lines...that is the only "link". http://www.bandpro.com/309/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98:mysterylenses&catid=1:latest-news

 

Regarding video not being for the rangefinder crowd, I disagree. What is true is that most current M users may think they dont want the added feature...but there is a lot to be said about carrying around one body that handles all your needs. (One charger, one set of lenses, etc.) Video functionality is they main reason I still have my 5DII, but I am a filmmaker so I am biased.

Edited March 30, 2010 by digitalfx

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[bill]

...we could call it a "Leicina"...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[ezc203]

Eastgreenlander - Rarely do I argue about things, but I do feel passionately about this subject.

 

D LUX is 24fps large sonsor type that I long for.

 

Okay... What are you filming that requires 24 fps and a large sensor? Home videos are better shot on 30 fps (or for the novelty of it 60, 90 or even 210 fps). 24 fps is a retrograded cinematic look that only people who are trying to duplicate a film camera look would use. Are you really going to need the shallow shallow depth of field for a home video? I don't think that's practical.

Why would this be stupid? I know we all love simplicity of M, including my self. What is takes is extra button. Who knows is what Leica will be able to put inside the M body. Maybe even at the original width M body?

 

The reason I love the Leica M system over Nikons and Canons is because it is a tool for photography. Photography. And its simplicity. No menu complications, and all the really necessary controls are there. Aperature, focusing, shutter speed. Boom. SO SIMPLE.

 

Adding a video option will be inevitably complicate things. It will introduce a complicated menu, buttons designated or reassigned to perform video options.

 

We have yet to see a digital M that's the same size as a film M, so your assumption is wildly optimistic (for now at least, I sincerely hope they can and will reduce the size of the next FF digital M to that of an M4-P). And reducing the size will most likely be improbable when adding video capabilities. I guess I can't back that statement up, but I just have a feeling its true.

 

Why else would it be stupid (in my mind), well if you are really into filming family events or a playful animal get a Flip cam or a Hero cam. Both are exceptional for that kind of stuff and will be under $300. Now if Leica added video capabilities, how much do you think that'll raise the price of the next M - by $1000? by $2000? As a photographer who LOVE Leica, but am also money-conscience, I just cannot fathom paying Leica premiums on wishy washy functions that are not gonna contribute to taking better photos.

 

When is the next digital M? 3-4 years from now? Don't you thing the technology has evolved?

 

My original statement suggested that the next digital M will not challenge the 5Dii in the video department. Perhaps I am too bold to make that statement. Maybe in 3 to 4 years Leica MIGHT make a digital M with capabilities that will challenge today's 5Dii, but don't you think the people over at Canon are constantly trying to improve their products as well?

 

Part of my original argument was not Leica is not capable of making a camera with great video capability that will be competitive with Canon, but that I just don't think they'll want to.

 

R10??? im talking video in M :-)

 

If your OP you mentioned the 5Dii, which is now considered a professional tool for cinematography. Hence naturally, I assumed you wanted M with capabilities like that. And I just don't thinks that's realistic. Ergonomically speaking, it'll be very difficult to handle an M system for video. The camera body is lighter and the lens heavier (relatively), which further unbalances the set up; preventing you from using it easily with Steadicam products. The lens is too small (and the tab doesn't help either) to mount a follow-focus for smooth, shake-free focus changes. The aperture rings click and not slide. You would need to add HDMI out, component out, audio out, a mic slot, a mic, etc etc. (Still thinking the M can be smaller?) It is simply not practical.

 

An R10 on the other hand is a more realistic option.

 

-------------------

 

But all this really bring me back to my original question: Why do you want video capabilities on your M?

 

In your original post you mentioned using the 5Dii and doing some amateur video making (I love that you are, and please USE IT MORE!!!) But for your purposes, I cannot image a better system. The 5Dii after the new firmware updates are AMAZING. You, or anyone else for that matter, do not need a M that shoots video. If you simply want something smaller or use your M lenses, may I suggest any Lumix mirco4/3s and lens adapter. A great alternative to the 5Dii.

 

If you are shooting and editing videos/short films, then surely the 5Dii cannot be beat.

 

Now, if you want a video M to shoot spontaneous videos. That's ... Well, just get yourself a Flip or Hero I mentioned earlier. <$300, small enough to fit in any jacket or pants and won't drive up the price of the next digital M for people who actually want to take photos with it.

[ezc203]

digitalfx -

 

I think a series of PL lenses by Leica is a wet dream for me. Not that I can afford it.

 

I'm not sure I implied that video / film making is not in the interests of the rangefinder crowd, if that is the impression I gave you, I apologize.

 

An "all-in-one body that handles all your needs" is a bit idealistic and fluffy for me. As a filmmaker and a photographer, I want cameras geared towards taking the best photos, and camera geared towards the best videos. The current Ms are the former, and the 5Dii is the latter (well, kind of, at least for its price range). I don't want something that does both at 75%.

[35mmSummicron]

I suppose I am one of the few digital Leica M users who wants Live View + HD capabilities in a future M.

 

Why? Shooting highres video with Leica lenses with the depth of field of a FF sensor would be just amazing. Live View is SUPER helpful if you're shooting and want a fast way to check focus (yes even shooting handheld--I do this with a 5D)

 

I am primarily a stills photographer, however recently have been dabbling in video shooting with a 5DMKII (also looking at a Pana GH1). Both these DSLRs are fantastic cameras, but I still prefer my M9.

 

I think the integration of vid moving forward will be a natural progression to digital cameras, just like good high ISO performance. As long as Leica implements it well!

 

the CCD in the M9 is amazing, but I'm not necessarily tied to it; I don't feel Leica is too. Whatever delivers the quality in the images (and footage)......

 

my two cents.

andy

[digitalfx]

I absolutely want video in my M. Its a marriage made in heaven.

[digitalfx]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

digitalfx -

 

 

I'm not sure I implied that video / film making is not in the interests of the rangefinder crowd, if that is the impression I gave you, I apologize.

 

An "all-in-one body that handles all your needs" is a bit idealistic and fluffy for me. As a filmmaker and a photographer, I want cameras geared towards taking the best photos, and camera geared towards the best videos. The current Ms are the former, and the 5Dii is the latter (well, kind of, at least for its price range). I don't want something that does both at 75%.

 

Sorry, I failed to quote Jaap on that one.

 

I didnt mean it would be an all in one to cover my needs in that sense. I have a Red One to fill those needs But there are times when a small covert body w/ exceptional Leica FF glass would be a godsend. Having an all-in-one in my (very small) bag, which never leaves my side would be far preferable to lugging around multiple rigs on a daily basis...which just isnt practical. Its the difference in getting the shot or not because you left your perfect kit behind.

 

A Leica M w/ video would be a game changer!

[250swb]

Yes- so it would be some kind of X1 with an M lens mount - nothing to do with the M series and not interesting for the rangefinder crowd.

 

That shouldn't be a problem, the majority of the 'rangefinder crowd' (myself included)will start dying off soon, which will leave Leica open to innovation without old farts grumbling 'we never did that in my day'.

 

Steve

[jaapv]

I absolutely want video in my M. Its a marriage made in heaven.

It would be a divorce for me..

[digitalfx]

It would be a divorce for me..

 

come on now, you know deep down you really want a mistress.

[jaapv]

That shouldn't be a problem, the majority of the 'rangefinder crowd' (myself included)will start dying off soon, which will leave Leica open to innovation without old farts grumbling 'we never did that in my day'.

 

Steve

The dying old farts will be replenished by the current young puppies as they relentlessly turn into new old farts.

[pop]

... innovation without old farts grumbling 'we never did that in my day'.

 

There are farts old, young and in between who don't care in the least what was done in "their" days, or how, or why. They are perfectly able to assess a situation or a tool on its own merits.

 

OTOH, there are sparrow farts who think a thing is useful or desirable or hot just because it hasn't been much done that way, or at all.

[Eastgreenlander]

Eastgreenlander - Rarely do I argue about things, but I do feel passionately about this subject.

 

Thanks for your posts, Eddie. I appreciate that you fell passionately about ths.

 

 

Okay... What are you filming that requires 24 fps and a large sensor? Home videos are better shot on 30 fps (or for the novelty of it 60, 90 or even 210 fps). 24 fps is a retrograded cinematic look that only people who are trying to duplicate a film camera look would use. Are you really going to need the shallow shallow depth of field for a home video? I don't think that's practical.

 

Large sensor adds DOF. 24fps look better and that the look I prefer.

 

Here are the 2 first videos I shot @ 24 fps:

by Per .net

[Eastgreenlander]

Okay... What are you filming that requires 24 fps and a large sensor? Home videos are better shot on 30 fps (or for the novelty of it 60, 90 or even 210 fps). 24 fps is a retrograded cinematic look that only people who are trying to duplicate a film camera look would use. Are you really going to need the shallow shallow depth of field for a home video? I don't think that's practical.

 

Its about being creative. "home video" haha!

 

 

The reason I love the Leica M system over Nikons and Canons is because it is a tool for photography. Photography. And its simplicity. No menu complications, and all the really necessary controls are there. Aperature, focusing, shutter speed. Boom. SO SIMPLE.

 

Adding a video option will be inevitably complicate things. It will introduce a complicated menu, buttons designated or reassigned to perform video options.

 

 

I' have taken over 6000 frames with my M9. I love M for the simplicity. No, adding video would only complicate the menu system and add one botton! Not the process of taking a image! New button to live view, set button to record.

 

 

We have yet to see a digital M that's the same size as a film M, so your assumption is wildly optimistic (for now at least, I sincerely hope they can and will reduce the size of the next FF digital M to that of an M4-P). And reducing the size will most likely be improbable when adding video capabilities. I guess I can't back that statement up, but I just have a feeling its true.

 

You know nothing of whats possible in 4-5 years time. You don't know what is likely.

 

Now if Leica added video capabilities, how much do you think that'll raise the price of the next M - by $1000? by $2000? As a photographer who LOVE Leica, but am also money-conscience, I just cannot fathom paying Leica premiums on wishy washy functions that are not gonna contribute to taking better photos.

 

You know nothing about what price range it would be even if any. Simply impossible to know.

 

My original statement suggested that the next digital M will not challenge the 5Dii in the video department. Perhaps I am too bold to make that statement. Maybe in 3 to 4 years Leica MIGHT make a digital M with capabilities that will challenge today's 5Dii, but don't you think the people over at Canon are constantly trying to improve their products as well?

 

Im not saying it should be better than canon!

 

Ergonomically speaking, it'll be very difficult to handle an M system for video. The camera body is lighter and the lens heavier (relatively), which further unbalances the set up; preventing you from using it easily with Steadicam products.

 

More difficult yes, impossible no. Its about being creative. Body, lens and tripod would do wonders with this setup. Add a kessler crane, pocket dolly, it would be great:

 

Kessler Crane - Quality Professional Camera Cranes, Camera Jib & Camera Support Products - Kessler Pocket Dolly TRAVELER

 

 

The lens is too small (and the tab doesn't help either) to mount a follow-focus for smooth, shake-free focus changes. The aperture rings click and not slide. You would need to add HDMI out, component out, audio out, a mic slot, a mic, etc etc. (Still thinking the M can be smaller?) It is simply not practical.

 

Zeiss lenses and some leicas: noct crons. But with the great focus dampening of Leica lenses can be done without!!! You don't set aperture while recording, I never do and many DP's never do that! HDMI might be outdated by then! Wireless microfone perhaps and more room in the M body when technology evolves! Remember when Leica said that FF M would never happen????

 

 

But all this really bring me back to my original question: Why do you want video capabilities on your M?

 

Its about being creative!

[AlanG]

The Zacuto site has posted a shootout where professional cinematographers compared video from various dslrs and the GH1 to pro film equipment. I found it pretty amazing. If the Dslrs eventually can capture video in a raw format, the results might surpass film for dynamic range.

 

I think while it might be useful to some for the M to have video, the M system would be at a very big disadvantage to these other systems due to lack of IS, AF, zoom lenses, electronic diaphragm control and other missing features. And the Leica lenses do not look to be good platforms for adding geared focus knobs, etc.

 

The Great Camera Shootout 2010 | Zacuto

 

If you have any doubts about dslrs being taken seriously for professional video, this should remove those doubts.

Edited March 30, 2010 by AlanG

[rosuna]

True.

 

I am not interested in video at all, and I also think the rangefinder Ms aren't suited for that task.

 

I see live view very useful for M users.

[Eastgreenlander]

 

 

Ah splendid, we've not had an "expert" for a while... "What it takes is an extra button." Yeh right. Amazing what functionality magically manifests itself when you add that extra button that is just so simple to stick on. What lies behind it, both literally and figuratively? Have you really so simplistic a view of the world?

 

 

Bill

 

Perhaps a simple view of the world, yes. One new/extra button for live view. Set button for record. I remember when leica officially stated that it would never be possible with an FF digital M. Technology evolve, and has done so.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Eastgreenlander

[digitalfx]

I think while it might be useful to some for the M to have video, the M system would be at a very big disadvantage to these other systems due to lack of IS, AF, zoom lenses, electronic diaphragm control and other missing features. And the Leica lenses do not look to be good platforms for adding geared focus knobs, etc.

 

I disagree, I never use AF on my 5DII when shooting video, and IS, and zooms are rarely if ever used. I mostly use fast primes and manual focus.

Actually, AF does not work on 5DII video mode.

 

Reels :: Digital FX (Louisiana Post Production & Visual Effects Company, Red 4K Camera Experts)

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pop]

Its about being creative!

 

Wouldn't we all be much more creative if we could use our Sinars 9x12 for the taking of videos? Think of the possibilities of - say - perspective corrected movies at 27.5 fps!

 

What I really mean to say, of course, is that creativity does not result from adapting apparatus which is optimal for one task to another task where it is marginally suited, at best.

[AlanG]

I disagree, I never use AF on my 5DII when shooting video, and IS, and zooms are rarely if ever used. I mostly use fast primes and manual focus.

Actually, AF does not work on 5DII video mode.

 

Reels :: Digital FX (Louisiana Post Production & Visual Effects Company, Red 4K Camera Experts)

 

Yes I understand this for pro and serious work and the Zacuto Shootout test used Zeiss lenses and manual focus via geared controls. (The whole purpose of Zacuto having this test.) But the M will be at a disadvantage to these if it moves into this market due to its limitations for use by amateurs as companies such as Zacuto and others are unlikely to make custom rigs for the M system.

 

I can see videographers using some of the small and cheap dslr cameras for tight, remote, or dangerous situations where IS, AF and AE could be useful. It isn't that these features are always used, but the lack of them on an M would not help many people choose it over even a lowly small and inexpensive GH1 for video. I've shot videos while skiing with a p&s camera and the IS is a great feature for me.

Edited March 30, 2010 by AlanG