will a 180 cron breathe any life into my d3's images?

[j_lir]

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so i love shooting my m's, the m9 gets the most action.

 

however when shooting in situations where i need a long lens i use a d3.

i have the new 70-200 vr2 and the images are so dead.

 

i'm just going through a show where my m9 images pop with vibrancy and life and the d3's frames are dead.

 

i've been thinking of grabbing a 180 'cron and converting it to nikon mount and doing some manual focusing.

 

there's not much photo wise out there with this combo, i've found some flower and bird photos of flickr but in terms of stage high contrast situations i can't find anything.

 

figure i'll ask around here.

 

so?

 

anyone care to shed some insight?

 

cheers

 

jesse

 

here's a nice m9+75 'lux frame from the black keys show down @ sxsw in austin tx.

 

 

and a d3+1.4x extender on the 70-200 vr2.

 

[ianspector]

Dear Jesse,

 

I shoot everyday with the M9 but also when I need something longer I use my D3 and the 70-200 with the NIkon 1.4TC. In fact I was shooting with that combo today as well as the 600VR. I hear this comment about flat lifeless images from non-M equipment, but personally I never see it. In fact the 70-200 has a fabulous bokeh, focuses instantly and is razor sharp. Like all images I often drop a curve or two to get it just the way I want it, but the D3 to my eye turns out wonderful clean digital images.

 

However, I read these views a lot so I guess I am just too easily pleased.

 

Ian

[j_lir]

they're not bad images, they're just not leica images.

 

leica > nikon in my opinion.

 

i'm wondering if the nikon sensor and leica r glass > nikon sensor & nikon glass.

 

wish i could demo a 180 cron.

 

hah.

[rljones]

I've had both the 180/2.0 and the 180/2.8 APO and I ended up selling the 2.0. The DOF with the 2.0 is very shallow (and there is no IS to help), so I often ended up at 2.8. The 2.8 APO is much less expensive and much lighter. Bokeh is great either way. (I've only used on Canon, not Nikon.)

[j_lir]

so did you find the 180 'cron to far surpass your canon L glass?

or is this a waste of money and time?

 

i'd rather have the extra stop for my work in all honesty so i'd go for the cron.

 

cheers

 

jesse

 

ps - any frames to post up? i'm CURIOUS!

[Arif]

Leica glass on Nikon D3 (especially the D3x) is very good and better than the Nikon glass in my opinion. I love the look of the 80/1.4 on the D3/D3x and prefer it to the ZF85 or the Nikon 85/1.4. I have not used the 180 but I am very happy with all the other Leica glass that I have used (not all Leica-R lenses are stellar though so do your homework and have fun).

 

I shot the following using the APO-Telyt R 400/2.8 with a 1.4 converter (i.e. 560/4 equivalent when taking the two teleconverters in mind) on the D3x and was consistently happy with the results. My colleague (European wildlife photographer of the year) mentioned how that combination had better image quality than his Nikon 600/4 on his D3x.

 

 

Bigger Picture at

http://www.arifiqball.com/p887682134/e12ef5af9

 

I think you will find many photographers here who use the D3/D3x for high iso with Leica glass and for sports without Leica glass.

 

Best regards,

Arif

[KM-25]

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I find the 70-200 to be fantastic, I have had many published images from it including magazine covers and I do not find it flat.

Are you sure you are working the light as well as you can?

 

Many people's photos are flat because they don't have the raw talent to see nuance in light...

[Arif]

I find the 70-200 to be fantastic, I have had many published images from it including magazine covers and I do not find it flat.

Are you sure you are working the light as well as you can?

 

Many people's photos are flat because they don't have the raw talent to see nuance in light...

 

I agree. I like it very much as well (almost as good as the 200/f2). I never owned the AP 180 so cannot compare but from what I have read, the 180 is almost as heavy as the 200/f2.

[adan]

I can't speak to the specific lenses mentioned - but having just acquired a used Canon 5D, images shot on CMOS through an AA filter (even with a Leica R lens) are definitely something of a shock after working with M8/M9 images. Dull and lifeless and mushy are about right.

 

However, some adjustments to workflow can help. A good profile made with a color checker is a must, and then setting up new defaults for contrast, black point and saturation and other parameters in the raw development software help some. I've found I even need to apply sharpening in the raw development stage (something I've never had to do with the Ms) to get the 5D images to even come close to native M9 images "as opened" in Photoshop.

 

Even so, there is no way I'd ever use the 5D in place of the M9 (or any CCD camera) - only as an adjunct for longer glass (as you seem to be using the D3).

 

I'd recommend working on the workflow before spending money on an R lens that still has to image via the same CMOS sensor. Once you're sure you've pushed that as far as you can (and are still not satisfied) then looking at a glass transplant is reasonable.

[Jamie Roberts]

Andy's right... and so is Dan (KM25)--it's the light that makes the shot most of the time.

 

Having said that, the 180 APO Elmarit R is a steal, and is certainly more flare resistant than any 70-200 zoom made by Canon or Nikon so you can work the light (notably backlight) a lot more easily and effectively. It's one of Leica's best lens designs, which is saying something. A gorgeous medium tele, that I miss on the Ms

 

On the DMR it's a fabulous thing; I've also used it manually on the 1ds2 and other Canons.

 

The D3 is a different beast, but if anything Nikon's longer lenses aren't as good as Canons; putting a 180R ASPH 2.8 couldn't hurt on the D3, that's for sure!

 

That's still not going to give you, perhaps, the contrast you're looking for but it will provide a change in colour and clarity from some of the longer Nikon lenses.

[Fotomiguel]

Sometimes I use a nikon D300 with a telelens. The postprocessing is much more complicated than the files from my M8/M9. Specially colour rendering. BW is not a problem.

The M8/M9 files are incredible easy to handle with Capture one. Sometimes just press Control+F and it's done.

[j_lir]

arif - that's the answer i was looking for.

 

i will keep the 70-200 when i need to get keepers it works great. it's a tool and i use it as such, however when comparing files i find my m9 (or m8 when i used that m) to be much richer. i have more room to bring up blacks, contrast, drop the exposure a bit and create the image i'm after generally. the d3 files have completely different behavior.

 

i've achieved great images with both bodies, but i prefer leica glass hands down and we all know why. so i figure the 180 cron will help with what i'm after.

 

unfortunately sometimes there isn't enough light to shoot the m's and thats another reason why i have the d3.

 

i digress.

 

i'd love to see some frames from a d3 + 180 cron.

 

thanks.

 

jesse

[nigelb]

Not qualified to comment on the 180 cron..........but am a huge fan of the Black Keys so good to see pictures of them on this forum.

 

Nigel

[noah_addis]

Your two examples are very different in terms of shooting distance, the quality of light, and maybe it's my monitor but the second one seems a bit desaturated:D

 

I'm sure the 180 Summicron is an amazing lens, but if you're looking to 'breathe life into' your images then I don't think any lens is going to help. Perhaps you just prefer short to medium lenses? Longer lenses tend to compress perspective and the results often look flatter than those from shorter lenses.

 

If you're talking about color and contrast, it may be you're noticing the difference between the CCD in the M9 and the CMOS of your Nikon. I've been able to process D700 images to look great side-by-side with M8 and M9 images, but they don't come out of the camera looking the same. They tend to need more of a contrast boost and also at least a tad more sharpening depending on your print size.

 

For my long lenses I'm using the latest version of the AF180/2.8D and an old 300/2.8AIS. Both are very good performers.

[wildlightphoto]

... if you're looking to 'breathe life into' your images then I don't think any lens is going to help...

 

Try a 280mm f/4 APO and see if you change your mind.

[noah_addis]

Try a 280mm f/4 APO and see if you change your mind.

 

Good photos (and bad, lifeless ones) are made by photographers, not lenses. I know this from experience, I've made my share of bad photos and in each case it was my fault, not the fault of my lens.

 

I'm sure the 280/4 APO is a technically wonderful lens that will make a great photograph slightly better in a technical sense, but it won't save a bad photograph.

[wildlightphoto]

Good photos (and bad, lifeless ones) are made by photographers, not lenses. I know this from experience, I've made my share of bad photos and in each case it was my fault, not the fault of my lens.

 

I'm sure the 280/4 APO is a technically wonderful lens that will make a great photograph slightly better in a technical sense, but it won't save a bad photograph.

 

Yes, no lens will 'make' a photogrpah. I have no idea why anyone would presume that it could. I've used about 30 lenses around 300mm and this one is is exceptional. Poor color quality, weak detail, flare, bad bokeh will make a photo unusable. Bad ergonomic design will make some photos impossible. There are a few lenses that a) don't get in the way and have no bad optical habits. These lenses allow a good photographer to push the envelope of usable working conditions well beyond the typical. The 280mm f/4 APO is one of these. I have no experience with the180mm APO-Summicron, but of all the Nikon, Canon, Olympus and other long lenses I've used, none have allowed me to push the envelope as far and as effortlessly as the 280mm f/4 APO.

[j_lir]

noah,

 

interesting remarks.

 

maybe you're right about long lenses, but honestly i feel like there must be a difference between the leica R glass and nikon glass. I do prefer the CCD sensor of the M9 as well as the M8, but sometimes I need to shoot long lens and that's that. I would like to be just as into those photos as others.

 

however in my work i'm generally given 15 minutes to capture my frames in the beginning of the concert. it sucks, but i'm dependent on the lighting director (LD) and if they suck the frames don't look so hot.

 

I find that I can't really put all that much contrast, nor blacks into a D3 image because it seems to max out. Should I be overexposing so I can bring up the blacks etc?

 

I just feel like having a nice piece of leica glass will give me better results.

 

Am I wrong?

[Jamie Roberts]

Jesse--

 

Doug Herr nailed it, though Noah's right too. All things being equal (which they rarely are) and the photographer having great skill, the great Leica teles are among the best there is.

 

The APO 180 Elmarit is your best buy IMO. It's half the weight of the 2.0 and from 2.8 on down they're essentially identical.

 

Again, the thing the Leicas are very good at is flare rejection, contrast control, colour and detail (micro-contrast, if you like) from wide-open to their diffraction limit.

 

One thing you can try with your Nikon cameras (I shoot Nikon as well); they lose a lot of DR as the ISO goes (way) up. I know this is silly, but try keeping your ISO under 2000 if you can do it and see if you like the results better.

 

I also find the colour of the Nikons needs more post tweaking than the Ms (M8 in my case right now).

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Hallo,

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[topoxforddoc]

I just love my 180 cron. I bought mine after Guy Mancuso's comments here many moons ago. It's my personal number one combo with a DMR for music/stage shots (along with my 80 lux). Handheld at 1/60th - 1/90th at ASA 400, this combo just produces great images. How much is down to the Kodak CCD, as opposed to the glass, I don't know.

If you want to see, then the shots of the following on my website were done with the 180 cron and DMR

Bangles, Paul Simon, Duffy, KT Tunstall, Imelda May, Pretenders, Orchestra Baobab.

As for finding one to demo, that could be a trifle tricky.

 

Best wishes,