Guest BigSplash Posted March 19, 2010 Share #21 Posted March 19, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) "Most people" wouldn't buy an M8 if it cost 500 GBP. It doesn't have the feature set that "most people" are looking for these days. No zoom lenses, no AF and so on. It's a niche product and it always will be. Steve you are probably correct. I looked up various market analysis and discovered that in 2005 there were 77Million digital cameras shipped, 2006 the fcst was for 89Million. Panasonic feel that 23 Million units is the market opportunity for DSLR buyers although 7Million units are actually sold ....they have targetd the G1 for the 16Million users who want a quality smaller size DSLR. Leica does not need to, and IMHO should not go after these multi Million unit opportunities for compacts or cheap DSLR's. Is it not likely that a niche market exists that is much more than 15 000 units a year and maybe less than a Million? Is there not an interesting sizeable market where Leica can lever its IPR, production experience, and other strengths based on the M camera, its portfoloio of INTERCHANGEABLE M lenses and the brand recognition? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 19, 2010 Posted March 19, 2010 Hi Guest BigSplash, Take a look here Low cost M digital entry level camera - How to implement? . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest BigSplash Posted March 19, 2010 Share #22 Posted March 19, 2010 It occurs to me that if this was a good idea, they would have done it with the film cameras... where it would have been even easier to implement. They did and it was called the Leica CL which at the time saved the company who could not sell the very expensive M5...this has been oft reported by ex Leica employees in this forum. Today they have a window of opportunity due to a rich portfolio of patents, M9 revenues, and the difficulty of making such a camera where leica is down a long painful learning curve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted March 19, 2010 Share #23 Posted March 19, 2010 The KAF-10500 is freely available and the sensor in the M9 would probably be too costly anyway. Or use an off-the-shelf APS-C sensor as Epson/Cosina did with the R-D1.. What is the KAF- 1050 sensor......is this Full Frame and does it contain the famous microprisms that is rightly the subject of Great pride at Leica and patents? You could write your own software. It’s not like Leica/Jenoptik’s stuff was that cutting edge that nobody else could replicate the functionality.. Agreed, but since we are waiting for firmware upgrades on M8 and only had M9 upgrade this week I do not think it would be a walk in the park to deliver quality software quickly for a M entry model unless you are Leica / Jenoptik. It seems to me that Leica has a commercial advantage that it can exploit. Provide a manual selection of lenses, a long list of every lens available for or adaptable to the M mount that you can lay your hands on, and allow the user to cut down this long list to the lenses he or she actually owns. Trust me: nobody would complain.. Agreed. However presumably you need specialist kit and access to the large portfolio of Leica M lenses .... to measure each lens type and build the profiles, or is that wrong? If there is a market for this type of product, eventually there will be an entrepreneur pulling it off. There’s nothing to hold you back. I would not want to do this as i would see the danger of patent infringement, need for specialist kit to test the cameras etc., and I have no experience of actually building cameras, and the lenses that match the camera. I believe that Leica does have this Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 19, 2010 Share #24 Posted March 19, 2010 They did and it was called the Leica CL which at the time saved the company On the contrary, the reality is that the CL almost drove Leica out of business - and DID drive it out of the rangefinder business completely for a couple of years (1975-77), until the Canadian factory (which made almost all the RF lenses and was facing 50%+ layoffs) came up with the plan to build the M4-2 in Canada (to save their own "Canadian bacon", so to speak). Once the M4-2 and later M4-P proved that the M-line, stripped back to the barest essentials (no meter, no battery, no self-timer, no black paint, very little silver chrome) and with no internal competition cannibalizing sales, was still viable, production was moved back to Germany with the M6. The memory of the CL experience is probably the number-one factor in Leica NOT ever having built an "entry-level" M body again. As numerous CEO's including Dr. K. have said - "The entry-level into the M system is a pre-owned camera." The only real "entry-level" M body with much success was the M2, which reduced the cost by leaving out the self-timer and simplifying the frame-counter mechanism (and the rewind switch, in its first form) - and also ADDED the feature of a built-in 35mm viewfinder (which today makes them just about as valuable for practical users as the "high-end" M3). On the original question: I think if you ask Dr. Kaufmann, he will tell you up front that part of his business plan is retaining jobs in Europe and Germany. Any plan that involves viewing workers as interchangeable cogs "and we can get cheaper ones in the Far East" is not why he set out to rescue Leica with his millions in investment. There may be certain parts, such as the R8/R9/M8/M9 electronic shutter or the sensors, that are sourced to the Far East, or to Kodak in the US, because no european company still makes such an item. We've heard the rumors that Leica is experimenting with simpler cameras that will take M (and R) lenses. Presumably Leica is getting some input from Panasonic, per their partnership, on using technology similar to the GF/GH-1. I suspect the outcome of that will be something more like an M-mount X1 than a de-rated M9 or M8. Major assembly in Solms, sub-assembly and parts from elsewhere (but Europe if possible). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 19, 2010 Share #25 Posted March 19, 2010 On the contrary, the reality is that the CL almost drove Leica out of business... It's not what i seem to recall as far as memory serves. See what Howard wrote there: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/473987-post134.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted March 20, 2010 Share #26 Posted March 20, 2010 Actually, I think they could make an X1-style body. It could even be a new model X1, and would accept an "X" range of AF lenses. But with an adapter, it could also use M lenses and have the following features: electronic manual RF (coupled to M lenses) use a CMOS sensor (like the X1's) 12 mp 1.5x crop factor faster RAW throughput cost about $2500+ body only w/ M adapter ...and I think that would drive more people to the X line without cannibalizing the digital Ms--which would all be full-frame Kodak or better sensors--in the slightest. In fact, with those kind of features and at that price point, I could see every M digital owner having one of these as a backup / point and shoot. I also think that gets rid of the CL issues: the camera, while nice to use, would never give you an M9 or M10 experience. Great in a pinch, though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 20, 2010 Share #27 Posted March 20, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Actually, I think they could make an X1-style body. It could even be a new model X1, and would accept an "X" range of AF lenses. But with an adapter, it could also use M lenses and have the following features: electronic manual RF (coupled to M lenses) use a CMOS sensor (like the X1's) 12 mp 1.5x crop factor faster RAW throughput cost about $2500+ body only w/ M adapter Ah yes, the Panasonic GF1, I've been thinking about one as a carry around camera <grin>. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo_Lorentzen Posted March 20, 2010 Share #28 Posted March 20, 2010 Good grief, if I had a buck for everytime somebody in the backseat started a argument saying "PlasticMan started it" CV and Zeiss already made film cameras on the M mount and Cosina made the RD1. go get one if you must. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted March 21, 2010 Share #29 Posted March 21, 2010 Ah yes, the Panasonic GF1, I've been thinking about one as a carry around camera <grin>. Well, not quite: for me the GF 1's 2x crop factor renders is all but useless for M photography (or any multi-lens compatibility) in my book. The last thing I want is my 21mm lens to be a normal FOV (and I don't need 100mm Nocti either, thanks ) I know it's just pie in the sky, but I actually do think Leica could "out-do" Panasonic and make an X model follow-on that could serve as a quick manual focus, electronic RF with true M-compatibility and coupling (without wasting "half" the optic and destroying the FOV, too). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 21, 2010 Share #30 Posted March 21, 2010 They did and it was called the Leica CL which at the time saved the company who could not sell the very expensive M5...this has been oft reported by ex Leica employees in this forum. Please quote your source/link to those posts. It is patently untrue, the M5 did not sell because of its form factor. The CL was so unsuccessful that Leica finally ceded the design to Minolta. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 21, 2010 Share #31 Posted March 21, 2010 I would have thought that retail price could easily be £1000 to £1500 level as M8 with its metal body was only £2200 when introduced. You've come up with a solution for the monetary crisis of the Pound then? That is absolutely sensational! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted March 21, 2010 Share #32 Posted March 21, 2010 Rember folks, Frank is a Turnaround CEO. Which direction is he trying to turn Leica? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted March 21, 2010 Share #33 Posted March 21, 2010 On the contrary, the reality is that the CL almost drove Leica out of business - and DID drive it out of the rangefinder business completely for a couple of years (1975-77), until the Canadian factory (which made almost all the RF lenses and was facing 50%+ layoffs) came up with the plan to build the M4-2 in Canada (to save their own "Canadian bacon", so to speak).. Andy it has been reported here by some people that the CL was a problem but others working at Leica at the time stated that in fact the CL saved the company due to the M5 debacle. It is clear that M5 did not take off as hoped. Which version to believe on CL I do not know. I think if you ask Dr. Kaufmann, he will tell you up front that part of his business plan is retaining jobs in Europe and Germany. Any plan that involves viewing workers as interchangeable cogs "and we can get cheaper ones in the Far East" is not why he set out to rescue Leica with his millions in investment. I would be the first to say that viewing any workfoce as interchangeable cogs is unacceptable and simply bad management practise that in the end fails. I do however believe that Dr. Kaufmann is not a philanthropist ...he wants to grow the business, get a good ROI and probably one day will exist with a bundle of cash. He said that he is in for the long haul and not just to make a quick buck as he put it. I think his timeframe was of order five years...maybe more now given the recession. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted March 21, 2010 Share #34 Posted March 21, 2010 Rember folks, Frank is a Turnaround CEO. Which direction is he trying to turn Leica? Simple: Profitable company rather than what we have seen so far in 2009 and in its recent history Growing Company rather than one that kills off product lines such as "R" product without a replacement, or one that pushes the price of it product M lenses, M9 into the heavens Secure future ....which means IMHO it has to widen its product portfolio and go for volume business that gets decent supplier prices, gets better supplier support, and achieves lower costs due to scale and automation.(in Germany) Client driven company making products people want and can afford, supported by a rich portfolio of accessories and services Client centric...meets shipment commitments for M9, accessories etc, and has an excellent fast turn around after sales support...Not as per today. Quality conscious company..that applies continuous improvement doctrine, and in control manufacturing (six sigma etc) Communicative company....actually tells via the dealers what is going on. Does not simply move warehouse and IT system and explains after the event to its dealers. RedBaron and others I hope that you agree and more importantly I hope Leica management go that route but given Herr Spiller's interview I fear not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted March 21, 2010 Share #35 Posted March 21, 2010 *sigh* Here we go again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. We really need an executive, single-seat soft furnishings forum... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ...perhaps they also do a swivel version for Spinaround CEOs? Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ...perhaps they also do a swivel version for Spinaround CEOs? ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/115845-low-cost-m-digital-entry-level-camera-how-to-implement/?do=findComment&comment=1267699'>More sharing options...
pop Posted March 21, 2010 Share #36 Posted March 21, 2010 We really need an executive, single-seat soft furnishings forum... [ATTACH]193862[/ATTACH] ...perhaps they also do a swivel version for Spinaround CEOs? It won't work. It doesn't have a red logo which is covered by a manila-colored patch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted March 21, 2010 Share #37 Posted March 21, 2010 It won't work. It doesn't have a red logo which is covered by a manila-colored patch. I would suggest something in a dark brown colour for reading the quarterly results, M9 and lens shipments; S2 / X1 / Pardovit sales figures; forthcoming annual results while preparing to meet Dr Kaufmann and the board. I guess having the red logo close at hand maybe a useful bonus after the meeting. I hope that soon Leica can move to a light green or blue colour that reflects growth and profit Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted March 21, 2010 Share #38 Posted March 21, 2010 You've come up with a solution for the monetary crisis of the Pound then? That is absolutely sensational! Jaapv thanks...it was easy really. Cut public spending in areas like Dentistry, and Schooling as all the people I know go privately. Reduce inheritance tax as that benefits many people I know personally. Many are bankers and they have had a rough time lately so deserve it Increase taxes for middle and lower income groups as that is where the money is. The challenge is to now move on and address other careabouts of the general public ...bringing back fox hunting is key of course and ring fencing banker's bonuses is vital. Hope you agree that this is the right track! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted March 21, 2010 Share #39 Posted March 21, 2010 Frank How many people on this forum used to work for Leica? No need to name names, just some idea of numbers. I would be interested to know. I do know that two at least still do work for Leica, but I don't know about ex employees. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted March 21, 2010 Share #40 Posted March 21, 2010 Is it AGM time again? It seems to come around quicker these days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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