Spiller interview in Welt Online

[bill]

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Bill, luckily Spiller is not Frank which would make it worse.

 

Regards

Steve

 

PS: Frank, not to be meant offensive. But I could image that you would have the drive and power to wrack the company in a very short period of time.

 

Quite...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[rosuna]

Made by Cosina you mean? My Epsons are partly made by Cosina as well but as much as i like them they are hardly better made than their Leica counterparts from quality point of view. They still work after 5 years' use though but i don't expect them to last forever. Leica will launch an M to my likings before they fall apart hopefully.

 

I was thinking on the electronics side.

[rosuna]

Better to remain silent and appear a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Abraham Lincoln

 

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll be glad to make an exception.

 

Groucho Marx

[lct]

I was thinking on the electronics side.

Agree but a digital ZI made in Germany would cost a little fortune as well. Question is to know whom is able to build accurate and reliable optical rangefinders at a reasonable price IMHO. I'm afraid nobody any more but i may be wrong.

[rosuna]

The Leica brand needs to drift towards a tiered offering IMHO along the lines of:

• "low entry plastic M", with Summarit lenses
  
• M10 ...the high end Rolls Royce with the expensive lenses
  
• S2 for the professional
  
• Pradovit for Jappv as he is willing to pay 3X InFocus price
  
• Sports Optics
  
• Maybe some Panasonic Leica badged items
  

I have no idea where the X1 fits in Leica's startegy.

 

I find more reasonable:

 

* The S system has to reduce the price of the body and develop it as a competitive alternative to the high end 35mm systems. The Pentax 645D is a model to follow here.

 

* The M cameras have to evolve. The rangefinder concept need a better adaptation to the digital idiosyncrasies. Accurate focus is a must, for instance. The M system (mirrorless, 24x36) is an excellent platform for future digital products (a classical reflex system is not, in my opinion). The M rangefinder camera may incorporate features which add versatility to the system, and different cameras may be developed sharing the M system's parameters (mount and lens-to-flange distance). Some interoperability between the classical system and the new one is possible, and also with the extinct R system. An EVIL camera with 24x36 format, developed by Leica and a partner, is a good idea for the future, on paper. Short term? Small improvements to the M9 (the LCD), and electronics reliability.

 

* Compacts by Panasonic.

 

* Large sensor compact cameras... like the X1, but I think this type of cameras will be replaced by EVIL cameras with small sensors. Leica may develop and manufacture a line of lenses, even manual focus lenses, for the micro 4/3. Expensive, but real Leica lenses.

[rosuna]

The Leica brand needs to drift towards a tiered offering IMHO along the lines of:

• "low entry plastic M", with Summarit lenses
  
• M10 ...the high end Rolls Royce with the expensive lenses
  
• S2 for the professional
  
• Pradovit for Jappv as he is willing to pay 3X InFocus price
  
• Sports Optics
  
• Maybe some Panasonic Leica badged items
  

I have no idea where the X1 fits in Leica's startegy.

 

I find more reasonable:

 

* The S system has to reduce the price of the body and develop it as a competitive alternative to the high end 35mm systems. The Pentax 645D is a model to follow here.

 

* The M cameras have to evolve. The rangefinder concept need a better adaptation to the digital idiosyncrasies. Accurate focus is a must, for instance. The M system (mirrorless, 24x36) is an excellent platform for future digital products (a classical reflex system is not, in my opinion). The M rangefinder camera may incorporate features which add versatility to the system, and different cameras may be developed sharing the M system's parameters (mount and lens-to-flange distance). Some interoperability between the classical system and the new one is possible, and also with the extinct R system. An EVIL camera with 24x36 format, developed by Leica and a partner, is a good idea for the future, on paper. Short term? Small improvements to the M9 (the LCD), and electronics reliability.

 

* Compacts by Panasonic.

 

* Large sensor compact cameras... like the X1, but I think this type of cameras will be replaced by EVIL cameras with small sensors. Leica may develop and manufacture a line of lenses, even manual focus lenses, for the micro 4/3. Expensive, but real Leica lenses.

[Guest BigSplash]

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Bill, luckily Spiller is not Frank which would make it worse.

 

Regards

Steve

 

PS: Frank, not to be meant offensive. But I could image that you would have the drive and power to wrack the company in a very short period of time.

 

Thanks for what I take as a compliment that I have the drive but why do you think I would wreck Leica in a very short time?. I have some questions for you:

• Do you really think losing money throughout 2009 and requiring Dr Kaufmann to inject significant cash yet again mid 2009 is healthy?
  
• Do you believe in Leica's future ....Let's be specific: X1, Pradovit? S2? ..M9 and its lenses once the backlog is cleared?
  
• Do you believe in M9 sales continuing at the present level once the backlog is cleared?
  
• Do you believe in what Spiller sees as his target market (ie rich snobs etc) for M cameras and their lenses being viable for years to come?
  
• Do you believe in a strategy focussed on hand building 50 units per day mentality?
  
• Do you not see Leica as having a unique chance to capitalise on their patents, and learning related to asph lenses, and FF M9?
  
• Do you agree that the low volumes run by Leica will never get the attention of their volume suppliers in terms of price, and support in an industry where suppliers have 18 month lead times?
  

If these comments are wrong, please correct me. I have suggested a way forward that makes sense to me. You and it seems others disagree...fine I am intrigued what you would suggest. ...I guess the alternative is to ship M9's and their lenses six months late, keep your dealers in the dark, complain about your suppliers, build everything in small quantities by hand and lose money until Dr Kaufmann gives up injecting his cash.

[lct]

...Large sensor compact cameras... like the X1, but I think this type of cameras will be replaced by EVIL cameras with small sensors....

I don't think so. Small sensor cameras are a different market. APS + EVIL is the future aside from P&S and FF cameras. The Samsung NX10 shows the way to go IMHO. Give it an M mount, possibly remove the AA filter and put the EVF on the left side of the body and you get the future affordable M. YMMV.

[ArtZ]

I know it will not happen, but a japanese Zeiss Ikon Digital would set a standard of quality and reliability.

 

Probablemente tienes razón, Rubén.

 

Personally, I wouldn't hesitate for a second using a Zeiss (or other brand) rangefinder if I get more reliability and quality. I use already Zeiss and CV lenses today and I'm very happy with them and... I had less problems with them than with some Leica lenses (my Summicron-M 28 ASPH, Summicron-M 90 APO ASPH or even the Summilux-M 35 ASPH...)

[Guest BigSplash]

I find more reasonable:

 

* The S system has to reduce the price of the body and develop it as a competitive alternative to the high end 35mm systems. The Pentax 645D is a model to follow here.

I Agree

 

* The M cameras have to evolve. I Agree

The rangefinder concept need a better adaptation to the digital idiosyncrasies. Accurate focus is a must, for instance. I Agree and maybe EVIL is the way, but there is a lot of debate still here

The M system (mirrorless, 24x36) is an excellent platform for future digital products (a classical reflex system is not, in my opinion). Fully Agree and this is Leica's differntiator.

The M rangefinder camera may incorporate features which add versatility to the system, and different cameras may be developed sharing the M system's parameters (mount and lens-to-flange distance). Some interoperability between the classical system and the new one is possible, and also with the extinct R system. An EVIL camera with 24x36 format, developed by Leica and a partner, is a good idea for the future, on paper.

 

Short term? Small improvements to the M9 (the LCD), and electronics reliability. Agree

 

* Compacts by Panasonic.Agree

 

* Large sensor compact cameras... like the X1, but I think this type of cameras will be replaced by EVIL cameras with small sensors. Leica may develop and manufacture a line of lenses, even manual focus lenses, for the micro 4/3. Expensive, but real Leica lenses.Good idea but not sure if the 4/3 guys would want expesive prime lenses that were not AF[/quote]

 

As you can see I agree with most of what you say but the devil is in the detail.

• How do you cost and price reduce the M9 or do you think that at £5000 plus lenses that is OK?
  
• How do you drive up volumes significantly to achieve cost reductions and support from suppliers and achieve economies of scale?
  
• Why would you not want a low cost M vehicle that also benefits the M9, M10..
  

[Guest BigSplash]

You really are not this out of touch, are you...? Honestly?? If nothing else you manage to provide a continual source of amazement.

 

Bill why do you not help me to understand? I ask :

> Is CV Voiglander (I guess yes) and many people use these happily with Leica M's and they are lower cost.

> If Leica successfully make volumes of lenses for Panasonic at low cost ...so why not employ similar techniques for a low cost lens range ..maybe below Summarit in price.

> Why do Leica not use volume production approaches?.

 

Why do these questions amaze you? Why do you not answer them rather than providing your usual style of reply.?

[ArtZ]

Frank (BigSplash),

 

I know it's a very Anglosaxon (and Protestant, in general) thing to talk about money. For us, Catholics is a sort of taboo and we dislike to see having everything related to money everywhere.

 

This said, I would never expect from Ferrari, Porsche, Bentley, R&R, Maseratti, Bugatti, Aston Martin to sell their cars at the price of a Toyota, Seat, Renault... (BTW, Aston Martin has a new "citadine" based on the Toyota IQ which sells at 30.000 € only for Aston Martin owners only). You pay their high price (if you can afford it) but you know you get premium quality and services, exclusif desing and a bit of history.

 

Now, the main reason to buy a M9 is to use wide angle lenses... but why I should get one if when I use a lens wider than 35mm, I risk to get "red edge contamination"? Even using the latest firmware, which took 6 months to be available, the correction of "red edge contamination" is done in detritment of quality (you get more noise in the corrected areas). Yes, I wouldn't mind to pay 5.500 € for a M9 "red edge" and sensor crack free, a M9 which doesn't have flaws that need to send the camera to Solms to be repaired, et cætera, et cætera, et cætera...

 

I would just be very happy if Leica started selling relaible and good quality digital rangefinders instead of overpricing their products because their consider us like collectors, tech-sevvy... you know the rest.

 

But, please, Frank, stop bringing everything to price. It's really annoying. Thank you.

 

Regards,

[bill]

Bill why do you not help me to understand?

 

Because you are a troll of the first water, Frank, and truly beyond redemption or parody.

[stunsworth]

Leica seem to make volumes of lenses for Panasonic are these of poor quality and hand built in Solms?

 

I think you'll find those lenses are made by Panasonic. If you're going to make sweeping statements it's probably best to do a little research first.

[Steve Ash]

Thanks for what I take as a compliment that I have the drive but why do you think I would wreck Leica in a very short time?.

Yes, Frank, I like your power and it was meant as compliment.

 

I think your ideas are too radical and risky for the size of the company. Actually you suggest to kill their cash cow, the M system, which I consider to be a very bad idea. You suggest that Leica should expand and diversify. But this is what they are actually doing with their product line up. So your comments are good but not new.

Regarding the R system Leica is working on an alternative as stated by Mr. Daniel last year. According to his words it involves an EVF. I do not see the sense to kill the M system because of this camera. This would also be in contradiction to your request to expand their business. I am keen to know what they will announce at Photokina 2010.

 

 

[*]Do you really think losing money throughout 2009 and requiring Dr Kaufmann to inject significant cash yet again mid 2009 is healthy?

 

Yes, I think it was the right decision because he knew that they had some great products in the pipeline.

 

Do you believe in Leica's future ....Let's be specific: X1, Pradovit? S2? ..M9 and its lenses once the backlog is cleared?

Of course I do. Otherwise I had not spend thousands of Euros. I am very happy about my purchase and do think that the gear is worth every penny.

 

There are a lot of people lusting after the M system but they cannot afford it. With more second hand digital gear penetrating into the market new users will increase the user base. This will also boost business as some will upgrade later.

 

Do you believe in M9 sales continuing at the present level once the backlog is cleared?

Hard to say but there are about 40.000 M8 users, analog M user who waited for full frame, snob, fashion maniacs, rock stars...

 

Oh, I forget the collectors.

 

Do you believe in what Spiller sees as his target market (ie rich snobs etc) for M cameras and their lenses being viable for years to come?

I do not believe in Mr. Spiller but in Dr. Kaufmann und Mr. Daniel.

 

Do you believe in a strategy focussed on hand building 50 units per day mentality?

During a visit of the plant the production line capacity was stated as 100 units per day for the M8. I suppose the same applies for the M9. I do not know if the mentioned figures are really correct.

 

The final assembly only is done manually. I suppose that most parts itself are produced with machines. Otherwise the prices would be even higher. In this respect I do not see the advantage to move production to far east as this would also scare off the buyers.

 

Do you not see Leica as having a unique chance to capitalise on their patents, and learning related to asph lenses, and FF M9?

..and the potential that know how is stolen.

 

Do you agree that the low volumes run by Leica will never get the attention of their volume suppliers in terms of price, and support in an industry where suppliers have 18 month lead times?

I do believe in low but steady growth for that size of company. I think Leica has accomplished quite alot in the last years. I wish that they keep the spin that was also conveyed to the public by Dr. Kaufmann sadly not so far by Mr. Spiller.

 

Regards

Steve

[giordano]

Is a CV lens a Voigtlander or what and therefore not very good?

 

Leica seem to make volumes of lenses for Panasonic are these of poor quality and hand built in Solms?

 

Are you really saying that it is not possible to build high quality lenses without needing a heavy cost for hand finishing, hand testing, hand callibration...how does Canon do it?

 

I'll have one last try, Frank, though I really struggle to believe that after all this time and all these threads you really don't know the answers to these questions.

 

1) The modern "Voigtlander" lenses are made by the Japanese company Cosina. Some people therefore call them "Cosina Voigtlander", hence CV. They are vastly cheaper than Leica lenses but don't aspire to the same pinnacles of optical performance or build quality (or indeed quality control, though it's clear from this forum that Leica don't always meet their own standards in this area). But by any other standards they're pretty good.

 

2) Leica doesn't manufacture lenses for Panasonic, it designs lenses for Panasonic, which are then manufactured in far eastern factories in the usual way, to the usual sort of standards of precision and quality control.

 

3) Leica M lenses need more hand-work than because Leica - rightly or wrongly, and alone among mainstream camera makers - demands superb performance at wide apertures. Mr Puts describes it thus:

Leica’s approach to lens design requires very tight tolerances during manufacture and assembly, as this is a mandatory requirement for very high performance at wide apertures. To ensure this high quality a large investment in human labour during assembly is necessary. It may be surprising in his age of computer controlled manufacture, but a person with expertise can assemble and control tolerances on a one-micron level, where mechanized production can manufacture consistently at a five-micron level.

The other manufacturers aim for superb performance at moderate apertures and useful performance wide open ... and this lets them use more relaxed production tolerances than the Leica approach permits.

[bill]

John, you have the patience of a saint.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[andybarton]

 

Leica seem to make volumes of lenses for Panasonic are these of poor quality and hand built in Solms?

 

Leica don't make ANY lenses for Panasonic. Neither do they make any of the lenses on the Digilux or D-Lux ranges.

 

Lenses on Panasonic are not poor quality, and they are not hand built in Solms. They are mass produced in a factory in the far east, somewhere. Possibly Japan.

[andybarton]

Bill why do you not help me to understand? I ask :

> Is CV Voiglander (I guess yes) and many people use these happily with Leica M's and they are lower cost.

> If Leica successfully make volumes of lenses for Panasonic at low cost ...so why not employ similar techniques for a low cost lens range ..maybe below Summarit in price.

> Why do Leica not use volume production approaches?.

 

Why do these questions amaze you? Why do you not answer them rather than providing your usual style of reply.?

 

All of the above questions have now been answered more than once.

 

To summarise (with bullets)

 

• CV Voigtlander lenses are made in Japan or the far east (somewhere). They are good, interesting lenses, but not as good, nor as interesting as the Leica counterparts, where they exist.
  
• Leica do not make lenses for anyone else and they do not make the lenses on Panasonics, on the D-Lux and Digilux cameras, nor on video cameras the sport Leica lenses.
  
• Leica do not use volume production approaches because it is impossible to make the products that they make using volume production techniques.
  

 

This should be enough to convince even Frank that Leica are not in the business that he thinks they are.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

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[Dan States]

So much denial going on. This forum is full of buyers in categories B (techno-nerds) and C ("Oh how knowing and sophisticated I must be with my Leica round my neck"). That many also take photographs is pretty much by the by.

 

Spiller's comments are, frankly, a breath of fresh air - a bit of a Gerald Ratner moment for Leica (though one which I doubt will have any far reaching consequences).

 

Amen.