Why the manual focus goes beyond infinity ...

[dkCambridgeshire]

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I sent the following Email to Leica:

 

Hi, I am planning to use my X1 in manual focus mode ... specifically at the hyperfocal distances if I can set them via the manual focus wheel. However, I'm confused by the fact that from the 2 meter position, there are 9 click stops/focus dot markings .. and the last two both coincide at the very end of the scale and appear to be beyond the infinity mark on the scale.

 

Whilst I realise it will be very difficult to set the hyperfocal distances exactly, it would help me greatly to approximate these distances.

 

Can you please advise the actual distances corresponding to the 9 clicks of the focusing wheel from the 2 meter marker? And can you specifically advise which of the last three click stops actually corresponds to infinity? When I refer to 'click stops' I refer to the clicks I can feel and just about hear as the focus wheel is turned.

 

The manual focus scale is very narrow compared to the size of the screen and the 2meter to Infinity section is only 5mm in width. Could this be revised and improved via a firmware update? It is very difficult to use especially from 2 meters onwards.

 

I wish to use the hyperfocal distances to improve speed of picture taking for street photography. Maybe the X1 was not designed primarily as a manual focus camera but it would be satisfying to use it as such ie when circumstances demand the utmost speed of operation. Personally, I would have settled for a totally manual focus fixed focal length lens camera of X1 size had you made one.

 

 

Regards

 

DK in Peterborough UK

 

... and this is their reply:

 

Dear Mr. Kxxxxx

 

thank you very much for your interest in the new Leica X1.

 

We have to agree, the X1 is primarily made for AF-use. Normally the autofocus is quick enough for taking sharp snapshshots.

 

The shown marks on the manual focussing scale are just a help for an approximate orientation regarding the focus distances. The actual reference for setting the focus manually is the displayed MF assist magnifier. So the best way to focus precisely by hand is to control the focus visually.

 

The hyperfocal distance markings provide a precise focussing also while bigger temperature changes. The material of the lens expands or contracts at higher or lower temperatures. To adapt the focussing precisely to these material changes, a hyperfocal range is integrated.

 

Thank you very much for your understanding and have a nice time with your new Leica X1.

 

 

Mit freundlichen Gruessen / kind regards

 

...etc

 

Does make sense now regarding the clicks beyond infinity ... similar to manual focus lenses telephoto lenses that focus beyond infinity ... I should have realised that before asking

 

Cheers

 

dunk

[pappde]

Am I missing something here?

You had more the one question and they answered only one.

It is all snow here in Princeton now, but as soon the weather permits, I will go out the park in front of my home with a meter stick and a 30cm wide red dot mounted on a pole and my X1. I am plannig to do the following:

Put camera on tripod, measure out three meters, stick my target in the ground, manual focus and count the "clicks", then auto focus and check the clicks again. Then go to 2.5 meters, 3 meters, 3.5 and so on.

Hopefully this process will give me some way to figure this puzzle out.

[dkCambridgeshire]

I think I've been a bit pedantic thinking that the lens should be set to the hyperfocal distances because when focused at 2 meters, the following depths of field are obtained at the respective apertures ... thus should be able to use f8 and f11 to cater for many candid picture situations ... especially with the camera's good high ISO performance.

 

Depth of Field for 2 meters focus distance (24mm lens, APS C format , 0.02mm circle of confusion) :

 

f4 1.57m to 2.76m

f5.6 1.44m to 3.27m

f8 1.29m to 4.43m

f11 1.13m to 8.94m

f16 0.95m to Infinity

 

Cheers

 

dunk

[ptu]

I think I've been a bit pedantic thinking that the lens should be set to the hyperfocal distances because when focused at 2 meters, the following depths of field are obtained at the respective apertures ... thus should be able to use f8 and f11 to cater for many candid picture situations ... especially with the camera's good high ISO performance.

Depth of Field for 2 meters focus distance (24mm lens, APS C format , 0.02mm circle of confusion) :

f4 1.57m to 2.76m

f5.6 1.44m to 3.27m

f8 1.29m to 4.43m

f11 1.13m to 8.94m

f16 0.95m to Infinity

Cheers

dunk

 

may I ask why 2 meters of focus distance? That is pretty damn close in my thinking... like if using 3 meters one can use little bit small f-number to get same dof.. (dof master has profile for X1, just have to scroll down the list of cameras). so if some one could explane why to use specifically 2m I would appreciate it.

 

I have to admit it would be handy that X1 would remember the manual focus distance when turned on and of, it would (in my opinion) make streetshooting faster.. not that I know much of it, but logically thinking....

 

Cheers!

[dkCambridgeshire]

may I ask why 2 meters of focus distance? That is pretty damn close in my thinking... like if using 3 meters one can use little bit small f-number to get same dof.. (dof master has profile for X1, just have to scroll down the list of cameras). so if some one could explane why to use specifically 2m I would appreciate it.

 

I have to admit it would be handy that X1 would remember the manual focus distance when turned on and of, it would (in my opinion) make streetshooting faster.. not that I know much of it, but logically thinking....

 

Cheers!

 

Well ... 3meters it is pretty damn awful far for candid street photography and is not marked on the focusing scale.

Fact is, 2meters is marked on the manual focusing scale as is 1.5meters. As the other calibrations are not specifically identified it's easier to use the 2meter setting.

 

dunk

[ptu]

Well ... 3meters it is pretty damn awful far for candid street photography and is not marked on the focusing scale.

Fact is, 2meters is marked on the manual focusing scale as is 1.5meters. As the other calibrations are not specifically identified it's easier to use the 2meter setting.

 

dunk

 

 

OK. I understand the 2 meter mark versus missing the 3 meter mark being easier to measure, but 2 meters distance is still pretty damn close.. But I do not mean to judge any ones preferences, all can shoot as want and are being used to. So do I. Results speak itself, and still we all don't like same pictures. Everything is in the eye of the beholder. And that is the the fun in photography.

[Guest stnami]

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some of you just don't get it the guy said

the X1 is primarily made for AF-use.

[ptu]

some of you just don't get it the guy said

the X1 is primarily made for AF-use.

 

my ears are hurting man!!! And yes, we know it. At least I know it and use it accordingly.

[Ecaton]

some of you just don't get it the guy said

the X1 is primarily made for AF-use.

 

But its AF sucks, how cynical is that, Leica. Which makes it a USD 2000 "go find a focusing workaround solution" camera.

[ptu]

But its AF sucks, how cynical is that, Leica. Which makes it a USD 2000 "go find a focusing workaround solution" camera.

 

I have not had problems with AF.. well, it depends on perspective of user..

[stephen.w]

It has been said before, but in good light the AF does not suck - it just isn't the industry leader.

 

What IS cynical is for Leica to include the following in the brochure for the X1:

'AUTOFOCUS COMPETENCE:The autofocus of the X1 enables photographers to react in an instant.'

 

Still, I honestly don't think that the autofocus will be a real problem for most of the shots that people will be taking with this camera (Porsches, Labradors, Cathedrals, etc). And for proper street work, most photographers will want to use it zone focused, which (according to Sean Reid) is eminently possible.

[Guest]

It has been said before, but in good light the AF does not suck - it just isn't the industry leader.

 

What IS cynical is for Leica to include the following in the brochure for the X1:

'AUTOFOCUS COMPETENCE:The autofocus of the X1 enables photographers to react in an instant.'

 

... photographers will want to use it zone focused, which (according to Sean Reid) is eminently possible.

 

Easily possible is better then eminently possible.

And still there after Off-On.

As soon as LEICA has the software update for this, it will be eminently possible for them to obtain my 1500€.

Gives Sigma (and prospective buyers sitting on the fence) a chance for their DP2s

[stephen.w]

Easily possible is better then eminently possible.

And still there after Off-On.

As soon as LEICA has the software update for this, it will be eminently possible for them to obtain my 1500€.

Gives Sigma (and prospective buyers sitting on the fence) a chance for their DP2s

 

I hear you. Let's hope the powers that be in Solms do too.

[Guest]

I hear you. Let's hope the powers that be in Solms do too.

 

I doubt they do. And you already more than spoke: from you they obtained. End of that hearing.

[thrid]

"the X1 is primarily made for AF-use."

 

I had this conversation with a Leica rep around xmas time.

 

I asked if they were going to improve the focus scale for scale/zone focusing, with a firmware update.

The leap from 2m to infinity is quite big and asked if they could add a few steps in between like 2.5m, 3m, 5m, infinity.

 

In response he told me that Leica's customers wanted autofocus.

I told him that I was a customer and I wanted manual focusing.

He told me to buy an M9. Never mind that it costs $5000 dollars more without a lens.

 

At that point I bit my tongue and walked over to the Ricoh section to look at a GRD III and ask about the GXR. If Ricoh ever manages to stick something like a fast 35 on the GXR, guess who will get my money?

[jsrockit]

If Ricoh ever manages to stick something like a fast 35 on the GXR, guess who will get my money?

 

While Leica already has my money... if Ricoh ever puts out a GRD IV with a larger sensor, they will get more of my money.

[thrid]

It really is a shame. I think the X1 is a good camera, regardless of it's few quirks. The problem is that I can't talk myself in to spending $2000 on it. I just don't feel it's worth that kind of money. If it was $1200 I would probably be more likely to get one. We've all worked with cameras that had some issues, but for the most part you learn to live with them and make it work. That's easier to do when you dealing with a camera at a much lower price point, but the X1 is already twice as expensive as the competition and therefore it becomes more difficult to rationalize it's purchase. Maybe I'll come across a used example next year, but by then you'll probably be able to purchase a new APS-C powered compact from several manufacturers for the price of a used X1.

[Ecaton]

It really is a shame. I think the X1 is a good camera, regardless of it's few quirks. The problem is that I can't talk myself in to spending $2000 on it. I just don't feel it's worth that kind of money. If it was $1200 I would probably be more likely to get one. We've all worked with cameras that had some issues, but for the most part you learn to live with them and make it work. That's easier to do when you dealing with a camera at a much lower price point, but the X1 is already twice as expensive as the competition and therefore it becomes more difficult to rationalize it's purchase. Maybe I'll come across a used example next year, but by then you'll probably be able to purchase a new APS-C powered compact from several manufacturers for the price of a used X1.

 

You hit the nail. The focusing compromises it requires, be it for AF, MF or ZF are not acceptable for a USD 2000 camera. If it had at least Sigma's DPs excellent MF wheel with distance scale or Ricoh's GXR snap mode with dof scale indication on screen.

[pappde]

I think I've been a bit pedantic thinking that the lens should be set to the hyperfocal distances because when focused at 2 meters, the following depths of field are obtained at the respective apertures ... thus should be able to use f8 and f11 to cater for many candid picture situations ... especially with the camera's good high ISO performance.

 

Depth of Field for 2 meters focus distance (24mm lens, APS C format , 0.02mm circle of confusion) :

 

f4 1.57m to 2.76m

f5.6 1.44m to 3.27m

f8 1.29m to 4.43m

f11 1.13m to 8.94m

f16 0.95m to Infinity

 

Cheers

 

dunk

I did a little bit of testing.

In manual focus, three clicks after 2 meters is focusing on an object 3 meters away, four clicks is 5 meters and five clicks corresponds to 8 meters focal distance. At this point your little green dot is right under the first loop of the infinite symbol.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[dkCambridgeshire]

Regardless of what Leica say about the manual focus scale and manual focus mode and the X1 primarily being designed as an AF camera, the general consensus is that MF needs improving. Hopefully Leica might take notice of our comments and maybe try and improve MF in a firmware upgrade.

 

Cheers

 

dunk