Robert_M Posted August 2, 2011 Share #41  Posted August 2, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Wilson,  I recently posted a considerable number of pdfs for Novoflex including pricelists at  http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-collectors-historica/192268-novoflex-information.html  If you wade through this information, look particularly at the pricelist from 1969. It indicates that the adapter you ask about is LEIMAR. I can not verify personally. It seems there are other adapters for lenses which have the same thread as the 65 ELMAR (at least other lenses which take the same Leica focus mount for viso) so I assume the difference is the length of the adapter. Not sure.  Hope that pile of info helps.  RM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 2, 2011 Posted August 2, 2011 Hi Robert_M, Take a look here visoflex-novice in macroland. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wlaidlaw Posted August 2, 2011 Share #42  Posted August 2, 2011 16464 and assorted tubes 16471 plus 135 4.0 90 2.8 65 3.5 will fulfill your desires. 16464 is a universal focusing mount also known as OUBIO. Alternative is bellows plus the adapter that takes the lens heads from 65/90/135  Tobey,  I already have a pair of 16464 adapters plus an Elmar 65, removable head T-E 135 and various tubes. However for some of the work I do, archival photography for museums, I prefer the precision focus of the Novoflex Bellows, which has micrometer focus adjustment. For very close/marco work with the Elmar 65, the LEIEL adapter is fine but for work slightly further away, I need the other adapter, which is I think, the LEIMAR.  Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted August 2, 2011 Share #43 Â Posted August 2, 2011 Wilson - for a complete novice in the area, are you able to explain the difference between the Leica and Novoflex bellows? It sounds as if you're set up to do some of the kinds of job I'm planning to do in London. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted August 2, 2011 Share #44  Posted August 2, 2011 Chris, Malcolm will do a wonderful job but I will be very interested to hear if you get it on schedule. If his turn around has improved, I may well send him my Viso III for calibration in the autumn. I have the odd phenomenon that mine seems spot on with my 65 Elmar but not quite right with 280 and longer Telyts.  Wilson I've had very good turn around from Malcolm of late. I'll up date when my Viso III turns up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 2, 2011 Share #45  Posted August 2, 2011 Wilson - for a complete novice in the area, are you able to explain the difference between the Leica and Novoflex bellows? It sounds as if you're set up to do some of the kinds of job I'm planning to do in London.  Chris,  The Novoflex bellows I have, a BALCO, is LTM at both ends. I keep a LTM/LM adapter on the near end and on the far end, I can fit in any of my LTM heads or lenses direct (Elmar 50, Summitar 50, T-E 135 head and the 280 Telyt with the 16466 adapter removed). I can fit the Elmar 65 head in with the LEIEL adapter but this mounts the head very far forward. I have been using the very low tech solution of mounting the Elmar head direct on the front of the bellows with Blu-Tak. I would however like to find the correct adapter but even by 1974, reading the catalogue that Robert very kindly offered as a download, the LEIMAR is no longer available.  I would guess therefore, I am going to be using either the 16464/OUBIO focusing mount or Blu-Tak for some time to come. The only reason I have a Novoflex bellows rather than a Leica one, was that one came with an assorted lot of Visoflex stuff, I bought a few years ago. The Novoflex has a very fine thread micrometer focus adjustment, which is very nice for archival copying. It also has a rotating collar, with a lock on it, which is also a nice feature, so that you can rotate the camera through 90º on the bellows, when the bellows is mounted on a tripod.  I am also looking for another "hens' teeth" adapter, the 14138 to fit a 280 Telyt head direct into my Televit fast focus pistol grip.  Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telyt2003 Posted August 2, 2011 Share #46 Â Posted August 2, 2011 16464 and assorted tubes 16471 plus 135 4.0 90 2.8 65 3.5 will fulfill your desires. 16464 is a universal focusing mount also known as OUBIO. (...) Tobey, hope you don't mind a slight correction, and some specifications: Â The correction: The 'universal' focusing mount 16464 (for the lens heads of the Tele-Elmar 135/4, Elmarit 90/2,8, and the Elmar 65) was also called OTZFO (not OUBIO). 16464 / OTZFO is the common short focusing mount for the Visoflex2/3 with these lens heads. Â (The OUBIO, or 16466, is the adapter needed for Visoflex1-screw mount lenses to be used with the Visoflex2/3). Â The specifications: Â The 'assorted tube' 16471 (J) / OTRPO is a macro tube for the lens heads of the Tele-Elmar 135/4, Elmarit 90/2,8, and the Elmar 65 for use with the focusing mount 16464/OTZFO (or the bellows, please see below). (The heads of the Hektor 135/4,5 and Elmar 135/4 can be used with the focusing mount 16464/OTZFO via the adapter tube 16472 (K) / OTSPO). Â (...) Alternative is bellows plus the adapter that takes the lens heads from 65/90/135 Â This bellows adapter is called 16558 (Z), already mentioned by Wilson. It also has the 33 mm thread and takes the heads of the Elmars 90/4, Elmarit 90/2,8, the Elmar 65, and the Tele-Elmar 135/4. (Again, the heads of the Hektor 135/4,5 and Elmar 135/4 can be used also with the 16558 via the adapter tube 16472 (K) / OTSPO). Â Hope I managed to avoid the pit-falls . Best regards, Telyt2003 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted August 2, 2011 Share #47 Â Posted August 2, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) A whole new world! Â I'll be interested to see how simple I can keep things! Â An aside - assuming that at some point there's an M10 with live view, am I correct in thinking that it will be possible to fit a Bellows 2 directly to the camera body and use this as the basis for a macro setup? Now that will be fun... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telyt2003 Posted August 2, 2011 Share #48 Â Posted August 2, 2011 A whole new world! Â I'll be interested to see how simple I can keep things! (...) Â Completely agree! For macro work with the M ... Â 1) the simpliest thing is just putting M-lenses directly onto the Visoflex2/3 (preferentially with 75 to 135 mm focal lengths). => only Visoflex2/3 needed. Â 1b) BTW, this macro option for the Visoflex2/3 surely also works with (M-adapted) (macro) R-lenses, as well as with R-extenders (please compare here sorry, in German). Â (Additional M-macro rings 16469 (or R-macro rings) may be inserted.) Â 2) If more (and variable) extension is needed: Intercalate a bellows 2. => Bellows 2 and M-mount adapter 16596 (G) needed in addition. Â Everything else is (only a bit) more complicated (with the advantage of more standardisation, and -not always- infinity focus): Â If you already have the bellows 2, you might be interested in adding ... 3a) ... the bellows adapter 16598 for the M46 x 0,75 thread (of the 90/2, 135/2,8, 200/4 and (partly the) 280/4,8 lens heads). 3b) ... the (standard) bellows adapter 16558 (Z) with 33 mm thread (for the 'standard' 65 to 135 mm lens heads formerly used for M-macro work, as listed above). => 1 or 2 more bellows adapters needed. Â 4) Some 'special' parts you would need using the same set of 'standard' 65 to 135 mm lens heads for M-macro work without the bellows (and while retaining infinity focus) ... => add the standard 'universal' focusing mount 16464/OTZFO, and 1 to 3 macro rings 16471/OTRPO. I would say, the bellows is easier and more practical, albeit option 4 is more compact. Â (From option 3b onwards: add the adapter 16472 (J)/OTSPO, if the heads of the Hektor 135/4,5 or Elmar 135/4 are to be used.) Â Best regards, Telyt2003 Â PS: Another macro option for the M, with the Telyt 400/6,8: macro-at-a-distance shot Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 2, 2011 Share #49  Posted August 2, 2011 Chris,  Here are a couple of pics of the Novoflex Bellows with the lens I use most on it for macro work, the 135 Tele-Elmar f4 head. The first pic is with the T-E head mounted direct in the bellows using the 39mm LTM thread. The second is using the 33mm thread and a LEIEL adapter for even more macro. I use this for taking pics of silver hallmarks. Here also is an uncropped M8 pic of a hallmark with the last set up. Wrong lighting but you get the idea. Hallmarks on curved objects are a nightmare to photograph. You have to use about 4 or 5 low power snoots with oiled tissue paper diffusors on them. Then the diffusors start to brown etc etc. I would like to get some 4000ºK LED snoots but they are quite expensive in comparison to the cheapo halogen ones I have at present.  Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/112610-visoflex-novice-in-macroland/?do=findComment&comment=1753989'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 2, 2011 Share #50 Â Posted August 2, 2011 My preferred macro rig as well, Wilson, except I use Leitz Bellows2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telyt2003 Posted August 2, 2011 Share #51  Posted August 2, 2011 (...)The Novoflex bellows I have, a BALCO, is LTM at both ends. I keep a LTM/LM adapter on the near end and on the far end, I can fit in any of my LTM heads or lenses direct (Elmar 50, Summitar 50, T-E 135 head and the 280 Telyt with the 16466 adapter removed). (...) (...) I would guess therefore, I am going to be using either the 16464/((OUBIO, please see correction below)) focusing mount or Blu-Tak for some time to come. (...) The Novoflex has a very fine thread micrometer focus adjustment, which is very nice for archival copying. It also has a rotating collar, with a lock on it, which is also a nice feature, so that you can rotate the camera through 90º on the bellows, when the bellows is mounted on a tripod. (...) Wilson  Wilson, The Leitz bellows 2 has a quite fine millimeter adjustment scale and screw, but no micrometer (Does the Novoflex bellows really have a 'micrometer focus adjustment' ?). The maximum extension of the Leitz bellows 2 is a bit smaller (95 mm on the scale) than that of your Novoflex bellows.  For sure, also the Leitz bellows 2 allows rotating (and locking) the camera (by 90 degrees).  Since it appears quite complicated (rare adapters) to properly adapt your Elmar 65 to your nice Novoflex bellows, did you ever think of buying an also nice Leitz bellows 2 that is normally not expensive. Even more so, since you already possess the necessary standard adapter 16558 (Z)?  Good luck with hunting the Televit adapter 14138! Best, Telyt2003  PS: The 'universal' short focusing mount is 16464 / OTZFO, whereas the Visoflex1-lens to Visoflex2/3-adapter is 16466 / OUBIO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 2, 2011 Share #52  Posted August 2, 2011 16464K/OTZFO on the left. 16466M/OUBIO on the right.  Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/112610-visoflex-novice-in-macroland/?do=findComment&comment=1754020'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 2, 2011 Share #53 Â Posted August 2, 2011 And the OUBIO is also needed for fitting 280 and 200 lenses to the Visoflex (except the 280 V 3) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted August 2, 2011 Share #54  Posted August 2, 2011 Chris, Here are a couple of pics of the Novoflex Bellows with the lens I use most on it for macro work, the 135 Tele-Elmar f4 head. The first pic is with the T-E head mounted direct in the bellows using the 39mm LTM thread. The second is using the 33mm thread and a LEIEL adapter for even more macro. I use this for taking pics of silver hallmarks. Here also is an uncropped M8 pic of a hallmark with the last set up. Wrong lighting but you get the idea. Hallmarks on curved objects are a nightmare to photograph. You have to use about 4 or 5 low power snoots with oiled tissue paper diffusors on them. Then the diffusors start to brown etc etc. I would like to get some 4000ºK LED snoots but they are quite expensive in comparison to the cheapo halogen ones I have at present.  Wilson Wilson - an elegant arrangement.  My only problem however is that I don't have any of the TE lenses - all my kit is Leica bayonet. I'm hoping that I'm not barking up the wrong tree assuming that I'll be able to cobble together a macro arrangement! . My current lens line up is: Zeiss 18 21 pre-asph f2.8 35 cron asph 50 lux asph apo 90 cron Apo Telyt 135 f3.4  I'm hoping that either by connecting directly to the Viso III or by using the bayonet mount on the Bellows 2 I'll be able to create a workable solution.  Having now bought the Bellows + ordered the Viso III don't tell me I've gone down a dead-end! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted August 2, 2011 Share #55 Â Posted August 2, 2011 Completely agree!For macro work with the M ... Â 1) the simpliest thing is just putting M-lenses directly onto the Visoflex2/3 (preferentially with 75 to 135 mm focal lengths). => only Visoflex2/3 needed. Â 1b) BTW, this macro option for the Visoflex2/3 surely also works with (M-adapted) (macro) R-lenses, as well as with R-extenders (please compare here sorry, in German). Â (Additional M-macro rings 16469 (or R-macro rings) may be inserted.) Â 2) If more (and variable) extension is needed: Intercalate a bellows 2. => Bellows 2 and M-mount adapter 16596 (G) needed in addition. Â Telyt 2003 - I'd not read your post properly - but now I have and HOORAY! It looks as if I have two simple solutions as I have the Visoflex 3 on order (and it will have been cleaned and calibrated by a very competent engineer with the right tools) andI'll have in a couple of days the Bellows 2 with the 16596 you mention. As I already have excellent modern 90 and 135 lenses I should be OK. Â What a relief! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telyt2003 Posted August 2, 2011 Share #56 Â Posted August 2, 2011 (...)My only problem however is that I don't have any of the TE lenses - all my kit is Leica bayonet. I'm hoping that I'm not barking up the wrong tree assuming that I'll be able to cobble together a macro arrangement! . My current lens line up is: Zeiss 18 21 pre-asph f2.8 35 cron asph 50 lux asph apo 90 cron Apo Telyt 135 f3.4 Â I'm hoping that either by connecting directly to the Viso III or by using the bayonet mount on the Bellows 2 I'll be able to create a workable solution. Â Having now bought the Bellows + ordered the Viso III don't tell me I've gone down a dead-end! Â Probably not, all depends on the reproduction ratios you are wanting! Â A Visoflex2/3 gives you an extension of 41 mm. Â That is roughly half of the focal length of a 90 mm lens, and roughly a third of the focal length of a 135 mm lens. In other words, directly on the Visoflex2/3, you get reproduction ratios of approx. 0,5 (1/2) with your 90 mm lens, and of approx. 0,3 (1/3) with your 135 mm lens. Or in again other words, your 90 mm lens mounted directly on your Visoflex3 should reproduce things in approx. half of their original size on the sensor. Â Should this not be enough 'enlargement' (actually, it is still a recuction !), you can easily get greater reproduction ratios with your bellows, additional macro rings (16469, 1 cm each), and/or the use of a shorter focal length. Â Should this be already to big a reproduction, then you may have a problem (with directly mounting M-lenses on the Visoflex2/3, and may consider for example buying the Tele-Elmar (head) and the bellows adapter 16588 in addition). Or you may consider the use of longer focal lengths (including R-lenses, as described) Â Hope all this is correct, what do the macro experts say? Best regards, Telyt2003 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 2, 2011 Share #57 Â Posted August 2, 2011 Wilson,The Leitz bellows 2 has a quite fine millimeter adjustment scale and screw, but no micrometer (Does the Novoflex bellows really have a 'micrometer focus adjustment' ?). The maximum extension of the Leitz bellows 2 is a bit smaller (95 mm on the scale) than that of your Novoflex bellows. Â For sure, also the Leitz bellows 2 allows rotating (and locking) the camera (by 90 degrees). Â Since it appears quite complicated (rare adapters) to properly adapt your Elmar 65 to your nice Novoflex bellows, did you ever think of buying an also nice Leitz bellows 2 that is normally not expensive. Even more so, since you already possess the necessary standard adapter 16558 (Z)? Â Best, Telyt2003 Â Telyt, Â The Novoflex does not have a focusing rack like the L BII but it really does have micrometer focussing. You set the focus roughly by releasing the side knurled knob and sliding the front backwards and forwards on the outer bottom sleeve and then lock up at the side. Then you focus accurately by turning the knurled knob at the lower front of the bellows. This is connected to a very fine pitch thread, which moves the outer square sleeve at the bottom of the bellows on an inner square support bar connected to the back frame of the bellows. I have just stuck with the Novoflex because it came as an unexpected bonus with my Telyt 400 and 560 lenses kit. I can always use the Elmar 65 head with the 16464 focusing mount so no great issue. At some point I will find a LEIMAR. I also use the full extension of the Novoflex to do macro with the 135 T-E on the LEIEL, so that could be a limitation. Â I have actually now got a Nikon D300 given to me, which I can use tethered and I do wonder if it really makes sense to keep on struggling with the Viso for archival work. I can pick up old Nikon prime lenses and tubes for pennies. Â Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted August 2, 2011 Share #58 Â Posted August 2, 2011 Telyt2003 - thanks for the further explanation. I think the next step is to wait until I've got the bits and see what each does - I tend to work better from empirical experience than theory The good news seems to be that the bits I've got will join together in various ways, will not do any damage to one another, and ought to go a long way to giving me the additional functions I'm looking for for a very reasonable price. Â A couple of other practical questions to the experts! Â 1. For static work (ie tripod / small object documentation) is there an advantage in using a cable release rather than the lever on the Viso III? 2. I use a diopter on the M. Can this be swapped onto the viewfinder of the Viso (is it threaded + the same size as the M finder), or do I need to find another solution (or wear glasses while using this set up)? 3. For those using the M9, what's your general practice in terms of metering? Manual and experiment with practice shots + image previews until you get it right, or Aperture Priority? Â and thanks again for all the advice! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted August 2, 2011 Share #59  Posted August 2, 2011 I have actually now got a Nikon D300 given to me, which I can use tethered and I do wonder if it really makes sense to keep on struggling with the Viso for archival work. I can pick up old Nikon prime lenses and tubes for pennies.  Wilson  Wilson - not fair with me setting off bravely into the unknown! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 2, 2011 Share #60 Â Posted August 2, 2011 Chris, Â I rarely don't use cable release. It is very easy to get camera shake with the very long release of the Viso. You may find you need a softie. Â You cannot fit diopters as the VF window on the Visoflex is rectangular. Â Aperture priority works fine but you need to have the Viso on yellow dot setting. Â Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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