Leica Digilux 2 vs. M8u (+28mm 'cron) - Round 1

[AlbertoDeRoma]

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A little over a week ago, the prediction that I would inevitably be drawn to, and buy, a digital Leica M series came true. I found a great M8u for sale locally (from another forum member) and, before I could kiss goodbye to a many hard-earned $s, I was the proud owner of an M8 + a 28mm Summicron.

 

Last Sunday, I went to SF and put it to good use as a street shooter (my newfound favorite and most fun form of photography.) I was very pleased with the results (posted on a thread in the photo forum) and the camera was a blast to use.

 

Following that day of shooting, I gushed about it in the M8 forum on this thread.

 

Today, after using the M8 exclusively for a week, I decided to take out one of my D2s for some local (Palo Alto) street shooting. I was not sure of what to expect; but I had a feeling that - after experiencing the wonderful world of a bonafide range finder, the "poor" "little" D2 with its low-resolution electronic viewfinder would not stand a chance.

 

How wrong I was.

 

Since I was taking street shots, and I always convert them to B&W, I set the D2 to B&W mode and started walking around looking for worthy shots.

 

After a few minutes, my brain/fingers connections were retrained for the D2 controls and I was having a blast. The D2 definitely felt different from the M8, but just that - different. Not worse in any way. All the pleasure of manual controls was there and I stopped thinking about the viewfinder and its lower resolution. I was 'one with the camera' the same way I was with the M8, it became an extension of my eyes (a feeling I never had with DSLRs by the way, nor with the DL4).

 

Unlike my SF outing, I did not have a lot of time to take photos (or as many interesting opportunities as SF offers.) But, I don't think I would have fared any differently if I had the M8 with me. The camera was pretty much out of the equation - I was not thinking much about it. Visualize the shot, pick an aperture and shutter speed and let it do its job.

 

The 28-90mm range of the Vari Summicron came in very handy on more than one occasion -- and I do love the quiet shutter.

 

But how did the photos come out? The shots came out great - I have no qualms about using in-camera jpeg with B&W. Yes, the resolution is lower, and there's a bit more noise but, frankly, for street photography those things are not a big deal IMO.

 

The bottom line is that deciding which camera to take with me on any given occasion is not going to be as straight forward as I thought. I love the M8 and I STILL love the D2. If anything, I appreciate it even more now that I've satisfied my curiosity of what it would be like to use an M8/9.

 

I consider myself fortunate to be able to own both (although the M8 was a self-gift for a milestone birthday - not something I would have purchased casually.)

 

I am not really putting the D2 and the M8 in a competition - this should be clear by now. Since I did not find much in the way of comparisons between these two very different - and yet, very similar cameras on the web, I thought I'd to post my impressions as I gain experience with both cameras. And, at least as far street photography is concerned, I can say with confidence that owners of Digilux 2s definitely don't have to feel like they are missing a lot by not having an M8. I can even imagine some people preferring some of the conveniences of the D2 (such as auto-focus and the 28-90mm range.)

 

Even though I did not succeed in capturing any great moments. I hate to post about photography without sharing a single shot. So below is one from today ... along with a bit of background: On my way back to the office I was passed by a beautiful woman in a red outfit that, with the word "Love" written all over it, looked like an advertisement for the upcoming Valentine's day. Just in case you are wondering, I don't make it a habit of shooting women's backsides , but I could not resist taking this one (notice the word "Love" on her belt.) I am glad I did, because it came out nicely, IMO.

 

Thank you for listening,

 

Alberto

 

"Love"ly Woman - Digilux 2, ISO 100, f/5.6, 1/320 (~60% cropped from original.)

 

[rsolomon]

yep...

 

That Digilux 2 is a damn good camera !

[stuny]

Thanks for the commentary. I strongly suggest bringing both with you anytime you're shooting in a once-in-a-lifetime location so that you'll have backup in case one camera fails.

[mobeyone]

Makes you wonder why Leica abandoned this platform when it could have progressed into something so much better.

 

I too want an M8 and all things being well will have one soon... that said it is a dilemma when the D2 performs so well.

[AlbertoDeRoma]

Thanks for the commentary. I strongly suggest bringing both with you anytime you're shooting in a once-in-a-lifetime location so that you'll have backup in case one camera fails.

 

Good advice. I always have one of my D2s well protected and ready with 2 batteries in my car.

 

Alberto

[AlbertoDeRoma]

Makes you wonder why Leica abandoned this platform when it could have progressed into something so much better.

 

I too want an M8 and all things being well will have one soon... that said it is a dilemma when the D2 performs so well.

 

If you want, and can afford without much sacrifice, an M8 you should definitely go for it. I am VERY happy I did. At the very least, you'll get the "true Leica and true range-finder" experience out of your system. But chances are that you'll have two wonderful - if different - photography tools at your disposal.

 

As for your first comment about Leica abandoning the D2 platform. I am sure that there were some good business reasons behind it. (e.g. with a D2 you don't have the need (or even the option) of buying additional lenses, the could not afford to support too many different product lines, etc.) I think that the move to concentrate on the M8/M9 + lenses was a wise one for them.

 

I hope you get to have your M8 soon - keep us posted.

 

Alberto

[tomtofa]

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My D2 is due back today with a new board. I haven't used it for a long while, but I'm looking forward to doing the same sort of comparison (oddly enough, in the same area as you, Alberto).

 

When I look at similar shots in similar places I've taken with both I have the same feeling as you - they are different, but hard to say that one is "better", except for resolution and noise. Granted those are significant 'excepts'...but there is definitely something about the D2. Can't wait to try it again, especially after the experience I've gotten with manual focus/metering on the M8.

[AlbertoDeRoma]

My D2 is due back today with a new board. I haven't used it for a long while, but I'm looking forward to doing the same sort of comparison (oddly enough, in the same area as you, Alberto).

 

When I look at similar shots in similar places I've taken with both I have the same feeling as you - they are different, but hard to say that one is "better", except for resolution and noise. Granted those are significant 'excepts'...but there is definitely something about the D2. Can't wait to try it again, especially after the experience I've gotten with manual focus/metering on the M8.

 

I am a software guy and I didn't do too particularly well in my optics class in college. But I have a feeling that the vary 'cron lens on the D2 would cost at least $1-2K if it was sold separately. So, yes, it does seem to boil down to usability and IQ. But I continue to be stunned by how good the D2 pics look - especially in B&W.

 

Hope you got your camera today - let us know, we know how it feels to wait.

 

Alberto

[farnz]

... But I have a feeling that the vary 'cron lens on the D2 would cost at least $1-2K if it was sold separately. ...

Alberto,

 

(FWIW) I think it would cost more than $1-2k. The 28 - 90 f2.8 - 4.3 Vario-Elmarit-R cost several times that much when new. A 28 - 90 f2.0 - 2.4 would be 1 to 2 stops faster, and we know how much cost there is in a single Leica stop.

 

Pete.

[AlbertoDeRoma]

Alberto,

 

(FWIW) I think it would cost more than $1-2k. The 28 - 90 f2.8 - 4.3 Vario-Elmarit-R cost several times that much when new. A 28 - 90 f2.0 - 2.4 would be 1 to 2 stops faster, and we know how much cost there is in a single Leica stop.

 

Pete.

 

Hi Pete,

 

I was taking into account that, being manufactured by Panasonic, it would not be priced like a "real Leica" lens. But, unfortunately, these are just academic discussions.

 

Alberto

[ljj]

"I too want an M8 and all things being well will have one soon... that said it is a dilemma when the D2 performs so well."

 

...................................................................................................................................................................................

 

Take care that your photography will work with the M8 rangefinder. I've just got a D2 for the 2nd time. The 1st one saw off an M6, and this one is seeing off an M8 I've had for 8 months. I just can't get the M8 to do what I want, close-ups, reflections etc - I've REALLY tried hard to make it work for me. I now have a bunch of expensive lenses, and I always seem to have the wrong one on.

 

Getting my hands on the D2, I was just having fun. It felt like going back to an old friend - Lover even. I'm sure it's heresy to say it on this forum, but IMHO the D2's a way better & more versatile camera than the M8 if shooting jpeg. If shooting RAW then maybe the huge expense of the M system makes sense. But for what I do, which is "almost abstract" I'm sticking with the D2. Thus all the masses of M gear I've got have to go. I've put the M8 itself and a couple of lenses in the "Buy & Sell" portion of the forum, and a link to all the other stuff I'm selling, if anyone's interested.

 

LJJ

[AlbertoDeRoma]

 

Take care that your photography will work with the M8 rangefinder. I've just got a D2 for the 2nd time. The 1st one saw off an M6, and this one is seeing off an M8 I've had for 8 months. I just can't get the M8 to do what I want, close-ups, reflections etc - I've REALLY tried hard to make it work for me. I now have a bunch of expensive lenses, and I always seem to have the wrong one on.

 

Getting my hands on the D2, I was just having fun. It felt like going back to an old friend - Lover even. I'm sure it's heresy to say it on this forum, but IMHO the D2's a way better & more versatile camera than the M8 if shooting jpeg. If shooting RAW then maybe the huge expense of the M system makes sense. But for what I do, which is "almost abstract" I'm sticking with the D2. Thus all the masses of M gear I've got have to go. I've put the M8 itself and a couple of lenses in the "Buy & Sell" portion of the forum, and a link to all the other stuff I'm selling, if anyone's interested.

 

LJJ

 

Very well reasoned post and conclusion. You ultimately need a 'tool' that works best for your style of photography. I also wish that I could focus closer with the M8 and I've been in more than one situation where I had no time to swap the lenses to capture a special shot. On the other hand, there are shots I am sooooo glad I took that would not have been possible with the D2.

 

Here are a couple of concrete example:

 

This is a shot I could/would not have not taken with the M8 - the focus was too close, I was alone and did not have a tripod:

 

 

 

 

Here's one that I've tried to take with the D2, but it lacked the resolution to withstand the processing without losing some of the important details (e.g. the lines in the powerlines). If anything, I would have liked the extra resolution of the M9 to better capture and preserve some of the details - I plan to enlarge and print this photo (after cleaning up the dust spots):

 

 

 

If I had to choose one, and only one, camera it would be a very difficult choice. But I would not be surprised I would find myself picking the D2 for its versatility.

 

Alberto

[erocks]

Stunning Photography, Alberto...great work!

[Lux50]

Excellent photos! I really don't think an M8 or M9 would have made that much of a difference in the second shot. Have owned my Digilux 2 for almost 4 years and have

been so pleased with it for my purposes that I don't feel the need to buy a digital M.

If I feel I want bigger prints/more detail I will take along a film M or R camera. Also

carry my D-Lux 3 by itself if I just want something small and light. But the Digilux 2

just feels "right"!

[AlbertoDeRoma]

Excellent photos! I really don't think an M8 or M9 would have made that much of a difference in the second shot. Have owned my Digilux 2 for almost 4 years and have

been so pleased with it for my purposes that I don't feel the need to buy a digital M.

If I feel I want bigger prints/more detail I will take along a film M or R camera. Also

carry my D-Lux 3 by itself if I just want something small and light. But the Digilux 2

just feels "right"!

 

Hi Lux50 (love the name BTW),

 

Just to be clear, I actually did take the second picture with the M8. Even though the conditions were not exactly the same in terms of light, etc. My previous attempts with the D2 did not deliver the kind of resolution I wanted - I kept "losing" the really fine power lines in the distance.

 

As much as I would like it not to be the case, for some photos the extra resolution of the M8 do help. Just like, in some cases, the close-up and zoom of the D2 come in very handy.

 

I think that's why so many people dream of a Digilux 2 successor. I'd be happy with everything exactly as it is now, but with 10MPs and a usable ISO800 (see I'm not too greedy ).

 

Alberto

[Lux50]

Hi Alberto - I apologize for my misunderstanding on the 2nd photo. It is just that there have been so many high quality photos posted on this forum taken with the Digilux 2, it would seem that many of them could have been taken with a digital M!

I would also like to see an updated Digilux 2 as many others would. However I feel that from

a business decision Leica could not do it as it would cut too much into digital M sales.

[wda]

Lux50, it is almost impossible to compare image quality when only viewed on a computer screen. Even my 3mp images look quite good on a computer. The difference only begins to show with bigger printed enlargements. In that contest, 10mp will always look better than 5mp.

[AlbertoDeRoma]

Lux50, it is almost impossible to compare image quality when only viewed on a computer screen. Even my 3mp images look quite good on a computer. The difference only begins to show with bigger printed enlargements. In that contest, 10mp will always look better than 5mp.

 

Hi David,

 

I've taken many versions of "The Road" photo (over several days) in order to get one that I really liked. I took dozens of pics with both the D2 (at 28mm) and the M8+28mm 'cron - with different exposures and apertures - and in all instances the M8 file "beat" the D2 file in keeping more detail of the power lines - even when viewed on a computer screen. This was, by no means a rigorous scientific test - and we are talking about a rare case (the finest power lines are probably just 1-2 pixels) but I can definitely see the difference in this "corner case".

 

Alberto

[DavGreg]

Makes you wonder why Leica abandoned this platform when it could have progressed into something so much better.

 

I too want an M8 and all things being well will have one soon... that said it is a dilemma when the D2 performs so well.

There are sill small sensors in production that Leica could put in an updated Digilux and use the wonderful lens. The biggest shame is that years from now when the last Digilux 2 sensor dies so will that wonderful lens.

If they would release an updated Digilux along the lines of the 2 I would beat a path to the store- wallet in hand.

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Hallo,

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[AlbertoDeRoma]

There are sill small sensors in production that Leica could put in an updated Digilux and use the wonderful lens. The biggest shame is that years from now when the last Digilux 2 sensor dies so will that wonderful lens.

 

I agree. It's one thing to toss out a point and shoot with a teeny-weeny motor-driven lens when the electronics die, but in the D2 case it's going to be REALLY tough to throw it away.

 

Alberto