S2 as a vacation point'n'shoot (gallery)

[mhoersch]

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if really leica spent so much money for developing the S2 and Hasselblad so little to develop the H system then Hasselblad did a wonderful job and leica a poor one. i have to replace 'limited resources' in my statement by 'limited capabilities'.

instead of bringing the badly needed innovation to the MF sector they apparently spent the money to catch up to where hasselblad, phase&mamiya have arrived a while ago.

really sad.

peter

 

...and a little tragic, even, because they still seem to think that they are better than everyone else.

[tashley]

Could I just bring the topic back to its roots again? The facts so far are that Peter took delivery of an S2 for really a very short period of time and, whether his individual unit had a fault or whether he had a representative sample, he didn't like the look of the results. In particular he thought they were too noisy at base ISO. He posted, as demonstration of this, a 100% crop of a roofline. I think it's fair to say that not everyone who saw that shot was convinced that it demonstrated the problem that Peter saw in it. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, I really don't know.

 

But I do know that the S2 has been through the hands of quite a few other people now, including Guy and Jack at GetDpi, Sean Reid, Michael Reichmann and in a less exalted way myself and that so far, despite days of fairly extensive tests, no one has had levelled the same criticism. I could re-read everyone's reviews to ensure that I am correct here but no doubt someone will point it out if I am.

 

I have personally shot well over a thousand frames with my S2 for example, and posted high and low ISO comparisons and examples a plenty and whilst I have found some minor issues, which Leica have been extremely quick to address, I have not found the noise performance of the S2 to be in any way disappointing. On the contrary, it is generally better than my P45+. Which is not to claim that it is better than a P40+ with pixel binning, or to a D3s or whatever. Clearly it is not but then anyone who knew what sensor was going into the S2 would have therefore have known, before purchase, in which ballpark they should look for an estimate of performance.

 

So whilst I am not in any denying Peter's right to observe his own results as he sees fit I would say that his experience represents, as least at this stage, very much a minority report and that it therefore makes a fairly slim pedestal on which to construct a large edifice of Leica bashing. Not, of course, that this fact will in any way act as a disincentive...

 

Tim

[markowich]

Could I just bring the topic back to its roots again? The facts so far are that Peter took delivery of an S2 for really a very short period of time and, whether his individual unit had a fault or whether he had a representative sample, he didn't like the look of the results. In particular he thought they were too noisy at base ISO. He posted, as demonstration of this, a 100% crop of a roofline. I think it's fair to say that not everyone who saw that shot was convinced that it demonstrated the problem that Peter saw in it. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, I really don't know.

 

But I do know that the S2 has been through the hands of quite a few other people now, including Guy and Jack at GetDpi, Sean Reid, Michael Reichmann and in a less exalted way myself and that so far, despite days of fairly extensive tests, no one has had levelled the same criticism. I could re-read everyone's reviews to ensure that I am correct here but no doubt someone will point it out if I am.

 

I have personally shot well over a thousand frames with my S2 for example, and posted high and low ISO comparisons and examples a plenty and whilst I have found some minor issues, which Leica have been extremely quick to address, I have not found the noise performance of the S2 to be in any way disappointing. On the contrary, it is generally better than my P45+. Which is not to claim that it is better than a P40+ with pixel binning, or to a D3s or whatever. Clearly it is not but then anyone who knew what sensor was going into the S2 would have therefore have known, before purchase, in which ballpark they should look for an estimate of performance.

 

So whilst I am not in any denying Peter's right to observe his own results as he sees fit I would say that his experience represents, as least at this stage, very much a minority report and that it therefore makes a fairly slim pedestal on which to construct a large edifice of Leica bashing. Not, of course, that this fact will in any way act as a disincentive...

 

Tim

 

tim,

my comments from did not concern the noise issue. i just tried to put into perspective where MF has arrived to and where it should be (in my view).

unfortunately nothing new under the sun.

peter

[tashley]

tim,

my comments from did not concern the noise issue. i just tried to put into perspective where MF has arrived to and where it should be (in my view).

unfortunately nothing new under the sun.

peter

 

In which case we find ourselves, happily, in violent agreement! I must say my purchase was driven by the form-factor and ergonomics rather than any serious expectations of higher IQ other than against my P45+ at higher ISOs.

 

Tim

[markowich]

In which case we find ourselves, happily, in violent agreement! I must say my purchase was driven by the form-factor and ergonomics rather than any serious expectations of higher IQ other than against my P45+ at higher ISOs.

 

Tim

 

tim,

i am with you on the form factor. but very soon canikon will have DSLRs with similar (to the S2) resolution and LV, VR, 51 focus points, 5 frames/sec, better dynamic range, more flexible files and you name it. then what does the S2 do for you? this is why i mean that leica missed agreat opportunity to innovate MF.

peter

[tashley]

tim,

i am with you on the form factor. but very soon canikon will have DSLRs with similar (to the S2) resolution and LV, VR, 51 focus points, 5 frames/sec, better dynamic range, more flexible files and you name it. then what does the S2 do for you? this is why i mean that leica missed agreat opportunity to innovate MF.

peter

 

Hmm, we'll see. I am suspicious of Canikon glass (I've had canon systems for over thirty years) and Canon's AF has so far failed to impress me. All in all, the focus accuracy and lenses of the M line have had me reaching for it in preference to a 5D/1DSIII/5DII unless I really needed a tele zoom. I hear what you say about Nikon and crave their famously good AF but actually I always shoot centre spot only, and the S2 seems pretty good at this.

 

You know more than I do about sensor design but my understanding is that we're at or close to various theoretical limits, for now at least, and that therefore higher resolution can only be bought at the cost of less good higher ISO performance. So if Canikons are going to appear with 40 or more mp on a 35mm FF chip, then they'll have to bin in order to do higher ISO. And even then they'll likely keep their damned AA filters.

 

In any event it's academic for me: I love my S2 and you can buy 'em now!

[Overgaard]

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@Dave, Thanks for posting about the financing, that's very interesting.

 

Just one mans' opinion, but I think features like Live View and fast tethered shooting will become more important with the release of tilt/shift lenses and other system accessories geared more towards architectural and product shooters. So it's not such a big deal to be missing those things right now that the system is courting fashion/portrait type shooters but might be nice features to add in the future as the system expands to other realms. I'm sure Leica already knows that. BTW - The phrase "spurious AF event" always cracks me up. For some reason, it 's as much fun to say as Janet Jackson's superbowl ''wardrobe malfunction"

 

Imagine how it would work with one of these things (Apple iPad) as a portable screen for tethering (eventual via WiFi SD-card)

 

[Guest farbtupfer]

Imagine how it would work with one of these things (Apple iPad) as a portable screen for tethering (eventual via WiFi SD-card)

 

 

Its an iPhone OS and not a full Mac-OSX... even no Adobe-Flash and no cam... maybe a iFlop...:-)

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Imagine how it would work with one of these things (Apple iPad) as a portable screen for tethering (eventual via WiFi SD-card)

 

 

Has a hard enough time wired pushing data.

[mhoersch]

In any event it's academic for me: I love my S2 and you can buy 'em now!

 

Tim,

when you believed the Leica Marketing hype and followed the discussions on this forum for over a year the S2 was supposed to revolutionize the MF market if not define photography as a whole in a completely new way.

 

Do you really mean to say that for you it's now down to: "the form-factor" and "I love my S2"?

[tashley]

Tim,

when you believed the Leica Marketing hype and followed the discussions on this forum for over a year the S2 was supposed to revolutionize the MF market if not define photography as a whole in a completely new way.

 

Do you really mean to say that for you it's now down to: "the form-factor" and "I love my S2"?

 

Sure I do. I take all marketing hype with a pinch of salt. You buy a product for what it is and I had ample opportunity to consider the shipping spec rather than the clay model wish list spec. And the shipping spec rocks, it really does. You should try it!

[ddanois]

Hi Tim,

 

Sorry for a mundane question, I'm hoping to acquire an S system soon and wanted to know if the lenses come with hoods and what accessories you have found to actually be available?

 

Your pictures from the S have been very encouraging and have peeked my anticipation.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Derek

[J_Miller]

It is my understanding that the bayonet hoods are included with their respective lenses. Having only seen a very few S2's in stock, I have seen spare batteries, caps, the professional S-charger, and the shutter release cable available.

 

Personally, I am anxious to the see the S-Multifunctional Grip and other interchangeable focusing screens.

 

Regards,

 

J

 

Hi Tim,

 

Sorry for a mundane question, I'm hoping to acquire an S system soon and wanted to know if the lenses come with hoods and what accessories you have found to actually be available?

 

Your pictures from the S have been very encouraging and have peeked my anticipation.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Derek

[tashley]

Hi Tim,

 

Sorry for a mundane question, I'm hoping to acquire an S system soon and wanted to know if the lenses come with hoods and what accessories you have found to actually be available?

 

Your pictures from the S have been very encouraging and have peeked my anticipation.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Derek

 

I believe it depends on what country you are in and what you tell your dealer you expect... in some countries it is my understanding that the 70mm lens doesn't ship with a hood but I am guessing that if you told your dealer that at that price you expect one, you will not have a problem...

 

Thanks for the kind comments! It's a great camera but I would caution anyone considering purchasing this or any other MF system not to expect their FF 35mm SLR skills to be quite enough... MF is a lot more demanding: you have less ISO, not such wide maximum apertures, no stabilisation, and take these into consideration with the larger sensors' ability to reveal camera shake and their lower DOF and you have quite strenuous demands on the photographer. I happen to believe that the S2 is the easiest way to make the transition but you will need a teething period unless you already have extensive MF experience!

 

Other accessories will start to filter through very soon, I asked for a spare battery a few weeks back and there were none yet but there may be by now. I'd also like the horizon grid focus screen.

[stephengilbert]

"I would caution anyone considering purchasing this or any other MF system not to expect their FF 35mm SLR skills to be quite enough... MF is a lot more demanding...."

 

So I guess it's not a "vacation point'n'shoot" after all. I guess you could bring one of those skilled MF shooters along on your vacation.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Sure for a nice fee , I will go almost anywhere.

 

Hey I will even hold the bag for ya.

[tashley]

"I would caution anyone considering purchasing this or any other MF system not to expect their FF 35mm SLR skills to be quite enough... MF is a lot more demanding...."

 

So I guess it's not a "vacation point'n'shoot" after all. I guess you could bring one of those skilled MF shooters along on your vacation.

 

Well Stephen, you could guess that. For someone with the relevant experience however, such as Guy for example, or a variety of other people, it might make a very useful vacation point'n'shoot. And were you to listen carefully to the tone of my initial post you might hear the tinkling of humour, possibly even irony, in the title of the thread. Or possibly not. These things are very personal...

[AlanG]

Hmm, we'll see. I am suspicious of Canikon glass (I've had canon systems for over thirty years) and Canon's AF has so far failed to impress me. All in all, the focus accuracy and lenses of the M line have had me reaching for it in preference to a 5D/1DSIII/5DII unless I really needed a tele zoom. I hear what you say about Nikon and crave their famously good AF but actually I always shoot centre spot only, and the S2 seems pretty good at this.

 

You know more than I do about sensor design but my understanding is that we're at or close to various theoretical limits, for now at least, and that therefore higher resolution can only be bought at the cost of less good higher ISO performance. So if Canikons are going to appear with 40 or more mp on a 35mm FF chip, then they'll have to bin in order to do higher ISO. And even then they'll likely keep their damned AA filters.

 

In any event it's academic for me: I love my S2 and you can buy 'em now!

 

I haven't tried the S2 but I have shot with a P65+ back and Mamiya. I also have the Canon 17mm TSE and it is a very impressive lens. Used with a 5DII, it is sharper towards the edges than using a 28mm Mamiya and P65+ back which is pretty remarkable for a shift lens. The MF and 28mm combination did give about 50% more resolution in the middle - but perhaps newer Canon and Nikon bodies will close the gap a bit. The P65+ and wide angle Rodenstock and Schneiders should be better.

 

The P65 has 60 megapixels whereas the S2 is only 37. The 24mm lens for the S2 isn't out yet so we don't know how that will do. When you list all of the pros and cons of using a modern 35mm system vs. the S2 the only thing I can come up with for the S2 is a speculated, but not always achievable in practice, potential of 40% or so better low ISO resolution and perhaps a subjective "look" that some might prefer.

 

But there are a huge number of advantages in a modern 35mm system - live view, IS, much wider choice of lenses, better AF, faster performance, more features, ready availability, established software support, pro support, lower prices, inexpensive backup bodies, tethering via Capture One, etc. So that makes for a cost/benefit analysis for many pros that works against the S2. Well heeled enthusiasts may use other criteria for making decisions and I can't say if this will provide enough market for the S2.

 

I am also planning to upgrade my 24 TSE to the new version as soon as I can get one. That lens is also reported to be outstanding. The rumor is that Canon will have a 12-24 f2.8 full frame lens soon. And also an upgraded 24-70 2.8. They have a new 70-200 2.8IS and a new 100 macro IS. So they are working on getting their lenses up to what the current (and future) cameras can deliver. And surely Nikon is doing the same.

 

I think the near term potential is at least 40-50 megapixels in a 24x36 format and maybe some of the newest lenses can keep up. (Without even considering advances in sensor design and manufacturing - you just have to scale up the current APS or 4/3rd size chips to see this.)

 

The S2 may be a fine camera but I think Leica has a limited time to get a fairly complete system out there - including spare batteries along with pro support, if they wish to get any real traction before it is so far from "state of the art" that they have to announce the S3 model. And we don't even know what Hasselblad has up its sleeves.

[markowich]

I haven't tried the S2 but I have shot with a P65+ back and Mamiya. I also have the Canon 17mm TSE and it is a very impressive lens. Used with a 5DII, it is sharper towards the edges than using a 28mm Mamiya and P65+ back which is pretty remarkable for a shift lens. The MF and 28mm combination did give about 50% more resolution in the middle - but perhaps newer Canon and Nikon bodies will close the gap a bit. The P65+ and wide angle Rodenstock and Schneiders should be better.

 

The P65 has 60 megapixels whereas the S2 is only 37. The 24mm lens for the S2 isn't out yet so we don't know how that will do. When you list all of the pros and cons of using a modern 35mm system vs. the S2 the only thing I can come up with for the S2 is a speculated, but not always achievable in practice, potential of 40% or so better low ISO resolution and perhaps a subjective "look" that some might prefer.

 

But there are a huge number of advantages in a modern 35mm system - live view, IS, much wider choice of lenses, better AF, faster performance, more features, ready availability, established software support, pro support, lower prices, inexpensive backup bodies, tethering via Capture One, etc. So that makes for a cost/benefit analysis for many pros that works against the S2. Well heeled enthusiasts may use other criteria for making decisions and I can't say if this will provide enough market for the S2.

 

I am also planning to upgrade my 24 TSE to the new version as soon as I can get one. That lens is also reported to be outstanding. The rumor is that Canon will have a 12-24 f2.8 full frame lens soon. And also an upgraded 24-70 2.8. They have a new 70-200 2.8IS and a new 100 macro IS. So they are working on getting their lenses up to what the current (and future) cameras can deliver. And surely Nikon is doing the same.

 

I think the near term potential is at least 40-50 megapixels in a 24x36 format and maybe some of the newest lenses can keep up. (Without even considering advances in sensor design and manufacturing - you just have to scale up the current APS or 4/3rd size chips to see this.)

 

The S2 may be a fine camera but I think Leica has a limited time to get a fairly complete system out there - including spare batteries along with pro support, if they wish to get any real traction before it is so far from "state of the art" that they have to announce the S3 model. And we don't even know what Hasselblad has up its sleeves.

 

+1.

the S2 was a very shortsighted mve by leica.

peter

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[AlanG]

I just remembered that the S2 will have 1 stop faster flash sync with 4 leaf shutter lenses than 35mm DSLRs have. So that is another plus if you need it - I don't know if any leaf shutter S2 lenses are available yet. However, with the other lenses, sync will be a stop less than on 35mm cameras..