Does Leica Have a Problem?

[stephengilbert]

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This is meant to be a serious question: given the time and effort Leica have invested in the S2, isn't it a problem that the two cameras of whose delivery we are aware each have problems, one serious enough to get it returned, the other likely to require at least a return for repair?

 

If Peter and Tim find problems so quickly, doesn't this say something about Leica's quality control? Is it unreasonable to expect that a twenty plus thousand dollar camera be given to a tech (or even a photographer) for 30 minutes testing before it's shipped out? I don't know what Tim's problem is, but you'd think that Peter's should have been seen before sale.

 

Steve

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[elansprint72]

Unbelievable! How long can the company trade on past reputation alone?

[stephengilbert]

Pete,

 

I understand how you feel, but I really would like to hear from someone who has some idea about the nature of Leica's quality control. Do they put on a lens, and put a card in the camera and take pictures? What do they do to see that each lens is within spec?

 

I recall little cards with someone's initials on them in the packing for photo equipment. Does Leica still do that?

 

Steve

[markowich]

This is meant to be a serious question: given the time and effort Leica have invested in the S2, isn't it a problem that the two cameras of whose delivery we are aware each have problems, one serious enough to get it returned, the other likely to require at least a return for repair?

 

If Peter and Tim find problems so quickly, doesn't this say something about Leica's quality control? Is it unreasonable to expect that a twenty plus thousand dollar camera be given to a tech (or even a photographer) for 30 minutes testing before it's shipped out? I don't know what Tim's problem is, but you'd think that Peter's should have been seen before sale.

 

Steve

 

steve,

i believe that leica makes its users pay the price for their entrance into the digital age. they slept through the first phase of digital technology claiming they don't need to go digital etc. after, they put out an extremely flawed M8 where it took them a year to get things semi-sorted. the M9 has the right concept but unfortunately it is still retro styled (ridiculousd base plate etc. ) and has electronic glitches. apparently digital photography is too complicated to just hire a few external suppliers, put things together and get it right. just take a look at nikon: they invented DSLR but still it took them three generations of cameras to get things right (D3 and D300). compared to nikon's R&D budget leica's is ridiculously low, so you get what it is: products not fully developed, integration issues on the sensor-hard wiring-software level etc. they are five years behind phase and hasselblad but charge more than they do.

i bought the S2 because i do like the color response of the last gen of kodak sensors but it just didn't work out. leica should hire some top people in the area of hardware-software integration and try out some innovative thinking in the area of digital rangefinders/live view etc. their foray into (quasi) MF apparently originated from their insecurity in the 35mm FF area (justified) and they certainly underestimated the expertise it takes to enter MF.

so leica users pay now for errors committed five years ago.

peter

[tashley]

This is meant to be a serious question: given the time and effort Leica have invested in the S2, isn't it a problem that the two cameras of whose delivery we are aware each have problems, one serious enough to get it returned, the other likely to require at least a return for repair?

 

If Peter and Tim find problems so quickly, doesn't this say something about Leica's quality control? Is it unreasonable to expect that a twenty plus thousand dollar camera be given to a tech (or even a photographer) for 30 minutes testing before it's shipped out? I don't know what Tim's problem is, but you'd think that Peter's should have been seen before sale.

 

Steve

 

Steve, my problem is, I think, a column defect which I guess is due to a hot pixel that isn't being mapped in the internal processing engine. It is effectively present, in the same column, in all files but is very rarely visible even at 100% on screen. Circumstances liable to provoke it are use of ISO 1250 or 640, tungsten light, underexposure and so on. In extreme circumstances it can be provoked in even an 160 ISO file but only when heavily underexposed under tungsten light. In practice the only shots I can't currently reliably do are long exposure night shots of the cityscape variety. Actually I do sometimes need to do that sort of thing but it's a rarity so over Christmas and New Year I have lived with it.

 

Now I have to decide whether to ask for it to be fixed, replaced or refunded as I might choose. This sort of thing does go out the door with most manufacturers from time to time but in this price range, as you say, it is a 'problem' and seems to betoken some QC issues which we would all rather not be seeing with a new product of this profile. In any event the unit I took delivery of is not really fit for purpose on this one count alone, I think most people would agree.

 

Below are a couple of examples. Any opinions that people might have as to the likely cause of this would be welcome. My guess as to the cause might be incorrect. It does show up in whatever RAW program I use though I have not tried shooting JPEG at all.

 

 

 

Best

 

Tim

[sgilder]

I didn't realize the S2 was such a colossal failure. It seems like only 24 hours ago (on this very forum) it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Don't get me wrong, if I'd have shelled out that kind of cash for a camera (or a car) I'd be pretty upset if it wasn't perfect, right out of the box. BUT considering Leica's track record with new releases of digital products, it seems a bit unrealistic to expect perfection and then blast Leica for a couple issues that apparently didn't show up until now. I don't mean to sound insensitive, but early adopters of any technology tend to suffer through growing pains. At least Leica is willing to fix it or provide a refund. I hate to say it (and sound like a fanboy), but other companies I've dealt with would have taken your money and told you to pack sand and wait for the S2.2. Again, not trying to be abrasive or sound like a jerk, just my 2 cents.

[ppolla]

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This is meant to be a serious question: given the time and effort Leica have invested in the S2, isn't it a problem that the two cameras of whose delivery we are aware each have problems, one serious enough to get it returned, the other likely to require at least a return for repair?

 

If Peter and Tim find problems so quickly, doesn't this say something about Leica's quality control? Is it unreasonable to expect that a twenty plus thousand dollar camera be given to a tech (or even a photographer) for 30 minutes testing before it's shipped out? I don't know what Tim's problem is, but you'd think that Peter's should have been seen before sale.

 

Steve

 

I had an issue last week when I bought a brand new M8.2.

Also a QC issue in my eyes....in the fact that my camera serial number didn't match the number on the box, warranty and test certificate....

Calling Solms made things even worse....they could not find anywhere in their internal systems the serial number of my camera...can you imagine that?

Many will say that I am exaggerating, but when I buy something expensive like a camera I want everything to be perfect.

They have some serious QC issues....if company I work for had the same we would be out of business....and battling law suits every day.

[stephengilbert]

"BUT considering Leica's track record with new releases of digital products, it seems a bit unrealistic to expect perfection and then blast Leica for a couple issues that apparently didn't show up until now."

 

I guess this isn't the place to get an answer to the original question. My question is whether anyone knows how it is that Leica can ship products with defects that are easily visible to end users. Why is it that an allegedly capable manufacturer of a high end and expensive product isn't finding these defects? I have no agenda. I'm not blasting Leica. I'm just asking a question. When I write something to be filed in a court, I proof read it. I even wait a week to proof read it again. Can't Leica turn the camera on and shoot some photos with it to see if it has any defects? Or do they do so, and miss them? I don't expect perfection. I just wonder how this happens.

[tashley]

"BUT considering Leica's track record with new releases of digital products, it seems a bit unrealistic to expect perfection and then blast Leica for a couple issues that apparently didn't show up until now."

 

I guess this isn't the place to get an answer to the original question. My question is whether anyone knows how it is that Leica can ship products with defects that are easily visible to end users. Why is it that an allegedly capable manufacturer of a high end and expensive product isn't finding these defects? I have no agenda. I'm not blasting Leica. I'm just asking a question. When I write something to be filed in a court, I proof read it. I even wait a week to proof read it again. Can't Leica turn the camera on and shoot some photos with it to see if it has any defects? Or do they do so, and miss them? I don't expect perfection. I just wonder how this happens.

 

Stephen, I share your frustration I really do but the fact is that this happens, again and again, with expensive cameras, cars, houses, whatever. If I ran the company I'd like to imagine I'd stop this sort of thing but I have to suspect that some aspect of the math and economics of the situation encourages it. My Phase kit last year arrived with a standard lens that wasn't fit to drink whisky out of, let alone focus through. The driver's door and glove box on my new Jag purchased last year don't shut first time like they should. My M9's rangefinder arrived and got sent straight back for adjustment. The latest release of Lightroom causes it to crash with M9 files a lot. Etc etc.

 

I am guessing that a certain proportion of units will ship effectively fault free, that others will ship with faults that won't get noticed, that others will have faults that get noticed but apathy determines their non-return and a final portion get shipped with faults that lead to a complaint/fix/return. Maybe the economics of QC these days works comfortably around those numbers? Who knows. S**t happens, and I suspect it often happens because a piece of math allows it to!

 

Tim

[mwilliamsphotography]

Well, whatever Leica did to pre-test the demo model I shot for 1/2 day in November, is what they should do to all the S2s. It worked flawlessly, and showed no issues that I could find ... and I was looking for them.

 

-Marc

[c6gowin]

I agree Marc. We shot the same camera back-to-back and I couldn't find any faults either.

[tashley]

The one I shot on the test day was flawless too - but my column defect would not have shown up that day at all, since you really have to push the camera to make it show.

[markowich]

Stephen, I share your frustration I really do but the fact is that this happens, again and again, with expensive cameras, cars, houses, whatever. If I ran the company I'd like to imagine I'd stop this sort of thing but I have to suspect that some aspect of the math and economics of the situation encourages it. My Phase kit last year arrived with a standard lens that wasn't fit to drink whisky out of, let alone focus through. The driver's door and glove box on my new Jag purchased last year don't shut first time like they should. My M9's rangefinder arrived and got sent straight back for adjustment. The latest release of Lightroom causes it to crash with M9 files a lot. Etc etc.

 

I am guessing that a certain proportion of units will ship effectively fault free, that others will ship with faults that won't get noticed, that others will have faults that get noticed but apathy determines their non-return and a final portion get shipped with faults that lead to a complaint/fix/return. Maybe the economics of QC these days works comfortably around those numbers? Who knows. S**t happens, and I suspect it often happens because a piece of math allows it to!

 

Tim

 

it didn't happen with any of my nikons and hasselblads but with all my leicas.

peter

[elansprint72]

.....I share your frustration I really do but the fact is that this happens, again and again, with expensive cameras, cars, houses, whatever......

Tim

 

Bentley Motors held back a model sign-off for several months because of an obscure NVH issue which most of "us testers" could not even detect, in normal usage.

 

The car costs the same as seven S2 cameras.

 

[tashley]

Bentley Motors held back a model sign-off for several months because of an obscure NVH issue which most of "us testers" could not even detect, in normal usage.

 

The car costs the same as seven S2 cameras.

 

 

And I test drove a GTC in November and ended up buying the Jag because the Bentley was ludicrously inflated and pimpy!:D:D

[tashley]

it didn't happen with any of my nikons and hasselblads but with all my leicas.

peter

 

Well Peter, you know the difference between deduction and induction and you've made your choice - I see no one criticising that. At these prices, the customer is king, right?

[Bo_Lorentzen]

Tim, you could get a slightly used continental, they were selling for pennies on the dollar when the convertible came out, simply because so many in Hollywood "had" to have the convertible right away, so they simply took a huge loss on brand new continentals...

 

Besides, the electronics on that car have serious problems. But I suspect that is exactly the core of the issue with both S2 and bentleys, forget the army of delicious dead cows involved in each car, the problem is that each camera and car is more or less hand-made, they simply don't make enough to get a perfectly flawless eletronic package. the engine, drive train etc. is lovely... but.. there are a few bugs in the rest, like don't try the automatic trunk opener after a heavy rain. ha ha.

 

So my guess is the core problem is the very small production volumes. the solution is called Nikon, Canon, and Lexus for that matter.

 

Hmm, 7 S2 to a continental. interesting, wonder how many nikons to a Ford.?

 

.

[jsrockit]

And I test drove a GTC in November and ended up buying the Jag because the Bentley was ludicrously inflated and pimpy!:D:D

 

Yeah, I hear ya, I was testing a Hyundai and ended up going with a Smart Car. I just found the Hyundai too high end for me.

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Hallo,

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[markowich]

Well Peter, you know the difference between deduction and induction and you've made your choice - I see no one criticising that. At these prices, the customer is king, right?

 

i know tim, but i can only sample finitely many times---)))

peter

[nugat]

The one I shot on the test day was flawless too - but my column defect would not have shown up that day at all, since you really have to push the camera to make it show.

 

I experienced such a defect on Epson RD1. In effect the seller preferred that I keep the camera for free rather than return to him. The repair is only via the total exchange of CCD and electronics. This is a pixel row failure due to faulty electronic circuits. It will become worse and worse with usage. It is easily diagnosable via taking a single picture at max ISO with the cap on the lens at a long shutter.