M9: Still Another Problem

[Guest malland]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

My M9 finally came back from Solms last Wednesday. I had dropped it off at the Thai importer on 29 December because it had a processor problem that intermittently produced a spurious light-coloured rectangle within the frame.

 

It took a long time partly because Leica couldn't reproduce the problem and wanted to send the camera back to me as is, despite the fact that Leica service, when I first communicate the problem to them, responded immediately that they would replace my camera with a new one as soon as they received it.

 

I kept of refusing to have the camera sent back to me because I had encountered the problem several times and knew it was there: initially the technicians said that that the problem was produced by Lightroom, but I explained I wasn't using Lightroom but using Aperture and Raw Developer, and I insisted that the problem could not have been caused by the raw developer because, then, it wouldn't have been intermittent. This reveals an approach which seems to be the opposite of "the customer is always right".

 

Some two weeks ago, Leica finally was able to reproduce the problem, and informed me that they would send me a new camera on which they would replace the top and bottom plates with my old ones because they had a few smalls scratches on them: it seems that Leica reuses for the production of new cameras these parts from cameras its service department replaces.

 

I wasn't happy about that because I wanted a completely new camera untouched by Leica Service, because you may know that this is the second time that this M9 has gone back to Solms: the first time was right after I took delivery of the camera in mid-October only to find that the sensor cover glass had two cracks, a problem encountered by several other people. At that time, Leica exchanged the defective part rather than replacing the camera; and, for all I know, the processor problem may have been caused by that repair. But nothing doing about sending a new camera straight from production: they had to put my old top and bottom plates on the new camera.

 

Yesterday, I sold the M9 for what I had paid for it, the buyer accepting that it was a new camera. While I did not feel that I necessarily would have still more problems with the camera, the two-month bagatelle during which I had to fight not to have Leica send back the old camera to me without having found the spurious rectangle problem did not leave a good taste. Basically, I sold the M9 for the following reasons, some of which may not seem valid to other people, and hope I won't be taken to task for that:

 

1. As I reported in another thread, the LEDs in the viewfinder are not visible in the bright light extant in Thailand, and are less bright than those in my M6 by what seems to be a factor of ten times.

 

2. The shape of the exposure area of the light meter are different from those in the M6 and M8 to a degree that, for me, exposing with wide-angle lenses was somewhat unpredictable.

 

3. The quality of the 230,000 pixel LCD is not good enough to judge exposure, which compounded, for me, reason 2 above. Unlike some people here, who don't even want a digital-M to have an LCD, I tend to feel that a digital camera should have the facilities that are inherent to digital cameras.

 

4. The general finickiness of the camera, much of which, but (crucially) perhaps not all will be fixed through the forthcoming firmware update.

 

5. Just after New York, I bought on impulse the Ricoh GXR/A12 when I unexpectedly found that a dealer in Bangkok already had for sale. This is a camera that I like a lot.

 

6. This year I expect to have to travel extensively between, and in, Asia, Europe and North America, which is more easily done with carry-on luggage only — an absolutely requirement for my frequent travel — with a Ricoh GRD3 or a GXR/A12 than with an M9 and several lenses.

 

So, now I'm left with eight Leica-M lenses, some of them of superb quality, and an M6 that I'm unlikely to use again, but which I cannot get myself to sell in the light of the low prices this camera is currently fetching. I'll be looking for what Leica does after the M9.

 

—Mitch/Paknampran

Bangkok Hysteria©: Book Project

[Julian Thompson]

You see I find this very frustrating.

 

That chap with the M8 who caused all that fuss the other week got an out of warranty shutter repair, free controls and grip cover replacement. That was on a 3 year old camera where the warranty had long expired.

 

At the same time, our man here has had an absolute nightmare with a brand new M9 and can't get a no questions asked replacement, instead ending up with a 'service department special' - which is fine on a 12 month old camera but not a brand new one.

 

This does not, by any stretch, seem fair.

 

All I can say is that maybe you need a relationship with a dealer that has good influence and contacts? I know I have, and it pays off constantly for me.

 

Mitch, I don't know you but you have my sympathy.

[chris_tribble]

Mitch - a pity it worked out this way. My only comment from my experience is that my 2 M9s have performed without a hitch in temperatures ranging from -20 to +30, at humidities from 40% to 96%, and in light conditions ranging from intense snowlit scenes to tropical beach to near dark interiors. In all cases the LEDs haven't been an issue, no images have been flawed by artefacts / failed writes etc. I've used Sandisk Extreme 2 and 3 cards (4GB or 8GB).

 

My only gripe is that the cameras show more signs of use than my black chrome M6s or M7s ever showed. This is an annoyance - I really don't like paint finishes and if I could swap for black chrome I'd do it like a shot. Otherwise, I'm a very happy user and I hope that my good luck continues. Really sorry that you had such bad luck.

 

The only consolation is that if you do sell them you should get a good price for the glass. Decent lenses are like hen's teeth at the moment.

 

Best

[Guest malland]

Julian, thanks for the sympathy. I doubt that the dealer could have done much because Leica Service was so receptive when I first contacted them, only to bog down in absurdity — telling me it was a Lighroom problem — later, and also because the dealer is in Paris, while I'm in Bangkok.

 

Chris, thanks, but I won't be selling my lenses because I'll be waiting for the M10 or whatever successor there will be to the M9.

 

—Mitch/Paknampran

Bangkok Hysteria©: Book Project

[andybarton]

M6s still sell for good money over here, Mitch.

 

It sounds to me that, after a lot of hassle, you've actually ended up with a camera that suits your style better than the M9 and you've got all your money back on the M9 that you have just sold. So, I'd say that was a decent result at the end of the day.

 

At least you haven't lost any money.

[wlaidlaw]

Mitch,

 

I am very sorry to hear of your travails. Service is now Leica's weakest point. I now have a personal point of contact and get good service but that should not be necessary. I have had dreadful service in the past, with cameras/lenses coming back worse than they went and dirty into the bargain. 2 years ago I arranged a lunch in Solms with SD to discuss this issue and QC in general with him but he wimped out and left me with their PR guy, who refused to accept there was a problem. Poor QC and service killed Lancia in the UK and has virtually killed Alfa Romeo - learn the lesson!. Someone really does need to get a very firm management handle on this department and make sure that customers, who are paying top dollar for their product, get first class and wholly consistent service. Although I hate the management speak phrase, a "Mission Statement" should be on the websites, showing exactly how a faulty new camera, guarantee claim and a normal service will be handled. Sometimes when you send an item in, it does not appear on the tracking system until the day it is sent back - that is unacceptable and is indicative of a department in administrative chaos.

 

Wilson

[Guest malland]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Wilson, I agree with you, but the funny thing is I've had very good service before this from Leica, both in Germany and in the US. When I lived in Japan twenty years ago I bought an M6 and some lenses in Hong Kong. When I moved back to the States there was a problem with the M6 that stemmed from some manufacturing issue. Leica New Jersey fixed it for free, despite the fact that it had been bought in Hong Kong and was a year past warranty expiration, because they felt that that the problem resulted from a production deficiency.

 

An Elmarit-90 that I had bought — is it called the "thin Elmarit"? — developed a fungus that this lens was often prone to and which was unfixable. Leica Germany gave me a generous allowance toward the purchase of the, then, later version of the successor Elmarit-90.

 

Andy, yes no damage done because I got my money back; but I wouldn't agree that the GXR/A12 "suits my style more" than the M9. I would like to be shooting with the pre-ASPH versions on the Summilux-50 and Summicron-35 as well as the Elmarit-21 ASPH and the Summicron-28 — all lenses that I have and like. But I think it's better for me to wait this dance out and perhaps get the successor camera to the M9. Don't get me wrong: I don't have seller's remorse, but, in writing the original posting I see now, that I wanted to think through the rational reasons I had for selling the M9, because not all of them may have been rational.

 

—Mitch/Paknamporan

Bangkok Hysteria©: Book Project

[richard_man]

Wow Mitch, that's a sorry tale, but hopefully it will work out for the best with your new camera. Besides, if you decide to give the M9 another try later, you can pick one up.

 

OTOH, if you have some good wide angle (wider than 28) for sales, let me know :-)

 

// richard

[Richard.no]

Hi Mitch,

 

That is some story you have there. I don't know anything about Leica's possible "social media surveillance", but I am sure they have a spy or two writing in these forums. If so, your story should be held meetings over at all levels in Leica; it's simply not acceptable to pay top dollar for 1) such inconsistency in quality or 2) such poor customer service.

 

They ought to be a bit more humble, and not imply that you'd go through all that hazzle because of some Lightroom flaw. Well, if that wouldn't piss me off, then what could...

 

For me, someone who's had a M8 but sold it and slightly regret it, a story like yours totally puts me off, and tells me to wait for the M9.2. You would think that Leica had learned a thing or two from the initial M8 release, apparently not. Sad.

 

It's a good idea to keep the lenses and don't feed them to the vultures that are flying in circles above this thread. In the meantime, I hope you enjoy the GRX: looks like an interesting camera!

[neli]

Mitch,

 

I am very sorry to hear of your travails. Service is now Leica's weakest point. I now have a personal point of contact and get good service but that should not be necessary. I have had dreadful service in the past, with cameras/lenses coming back worse than they went and dirty into the bargain. 2 years ago I arranged a lunch in Solms with SD to discuss this issue and QC in general with him but he wimped out and left me with their PR guy, who refused to accept there was a problem. Poor QC and service killed Lancia in the UK and has virtually killed Alfa Romeo - learn the lesson!. Someone really does need to get a very firm management handle on this department and make sure that customers, who are paying top dollar for their product, get first class and wholly consistent service. Although I hate the management speak phrase, a "Mission Statement" should be on the websites, showing exactly how a faulty new camera, guarantee claim and a normal service will be handled. Sometimes when you send an item in, it does not appear on the tracking system until the day it is sent back - that is unacceptable and is indicative of a department in administrative chaos.

 

Wilson

 

Very well put and written.

I'd love to hear a response on this from Leica.

Customer care is exceedingly difficult in a globalized world, especially for a smaller company.

On a whim I went to check out the service section on the Leica photographic site. Here's a screenshot from the repair tracking system:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[rosuna]

Mitch,

 

I have a large deposit in a shop in Madrid, for a M9. But I decided to wait.

 

I will not buy the M9. I have a M8, and I had to send it to Germany for repair 3 times. Now my M8 is in Germany, for two months... another failure in the electronics (sensor, processor, motherboard, 6-bits codes reader, whatever). I also had (and have) serious problems related with focus accuracy and consistency. I have read all the reports of problems with the M9, and I am really scared. It is the same story of the M8, or even worse. There are M9s working well, but also many, many reports of different failures. The M9 seems to be a M8.3 with full frame sensor. That's all. I think the M digital needs a redesign from scratch. I will wait for a M camera up to the standards set by the S2 camera.

 

Leica has been using (and abusing) the M user base for surviving. The M8 sold very well just because it was the first M digital, in spite of its flaws (too many, too severe). The M9 is selling well just because it is full frame, in spite of its flaws (too many, too severe). Leica knew these cameras will sell very well, so they designed a camera adapted to the needs of Leica, not the photographer: short development cycles, revenues, shared components M8-M9-M7-MP, etc. The target was maximize the profit, but the failures have devoured a large part of those profits from the digital Ms. This is the lesson for Leica: shortcuts don't work.

 

The S2 is the first Leica camera up to the expectations, up to Leica standards (in digital), up to "pro" standards (in digital). It is designed to be state of the art in every and all dimensions. It is very well designed, well finished, use the best components, it is adapted to the photographer needs (Leica considered the opinion of photographers during the development process, considered the competition, etc.).

 

Now, it is very important for Leica 1) a profitable S line, 2) a new M camera designed with the user in mind, based on the same principles of the S2 camera. The point 1) is a condition for 2). The M8/M9 cameras were a condition for 1), and I (and many others) paid the price.

 

The point 2) implies a camera miles ahead of the current M9: better rangefinder (accuracy) and focusing assistance; sealed and robust body (use magnesium alloy also for the top cover, if needed); better processor and electronics (reliability! reliability!); easier and faster technical support (easier and faster access to the guts of the camera for repairing); better LCD and controls; better software (firmware); etc.

 

I see the S2 camera and I can't avoid comparing it to the M8/9. They seem to be cameras from different companies, or from different technological ages.

 

My experience with the M8 has been a mixed one (several great pictures, in spite of the problems). But I wouldn't buy one again. Too much money, more than 6-8 months in repairs (I bought my camera in 2006), accuracy problems, problems related with filters... and a scaring uncertainty. When the warranty is over you are exposed to repairs of several weeks and several hundred euros. I paid 3.600 euros for the M8 then, and I will not pay 5.500 for a M9 now. If I sell my equipment (the M8 and two Summilux lenses) the loss would be really huge... so... I will wait until Photokina and then I will take a decision. Reading your story I was feeling sad.

 

But I think it's better for me to wait this dance out and perhaps get the successor camera to the M9.

 

I agree.

[jaapv]

Very well put and written.

I'd love to hear a response on this from Leica.

Customer care is exceedingly difficult in a globalized world, especially for a smaller company.

On a whim I went to check out the service section on the Leica photographic site. Here's a screenshot from the repair tracking system:

Yes - that script does not work in all browsers.

 

Please note that this service presently requires Internet Explorer 6.0

 

If you had read what is written...

[Mike Rawcs]

"But I think it's better for me to wait this dance out and perhaps get the successor camera to the M9.".

 

Mitch, me too.

 

Mike.

[wlaidlaw]

Yes - that script does not work in all browsers.

 

 

 

If you had read what is written...

 

Jaap,

 

I think that is a symptom of the malaise in the service department. A forum member did a rough and ready poll of other forum members last year and it was discovered that we were about 50% Mac users - no IE6. Of the Windows users, for the sake of Internet security, I would guess the majority don't use IE6, which even Microsoft no longer supports. Yet Leica's service division still only supports this obsolete browser. Actually it does sometimes work in Mozilla Firefox but not all the time.

 

Wilson

[chris_tribble]

"But I think it's better for me to wait this dance out and perhaps get the successor camera to the M9.".

 

Mitch, me too.

 

Mike.

 

Mike / Rosuna ...

 

Hmm - something about "one swallow doesn't make a summer..." comes to mind. This isn't to denigrate Mitch's tale of disaster - it happened, it sucked and I'm glad he's out sunny side up... However - based on 6 months' experience of using M9s in a wide range of conditions and assignments , if anyone asked me which camera I'd recommend for professional work in documentary / reportage I'd not hesitate for a moment to advise them to get an M9.

 

OK - I wouldn't advise them to trade in a working Nikon / Canon system that they depended on to make their living and to put all their eggs in the M9 basket. That would be silly because the M9's got it's advantages and its disadvantages (visoflex and long lenses really doesn't seem like a viable option if you need the camera to earn money in sports photography)... But for those people who work mainly between 28 and 50, with the occassional need for 90, I really haven't found a better tool for the job.

 

M10? Maybe - but apart from a phenomenal change in the quality of the sensor, I can't see a compelling reason for considering any major changes to the M9 as it stands. It's a bit like the 5D. I still have one. It does the job. I got the 5D2 because I wanted a second full frame DSLR and I wanted the video functionality as I'm often asked to include interview footage in projects I shoot. If it hadn't been for that I'd have bought a second 5D. My second full-frame DRF's an M9. It does the job...

 

BTW - re repair tracking I've always used Firefox and never had probems:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[innerimager]

Maybe it's one of the prototypes and is worth it's wait in gold...

No wait, it's worth a lot more, gold is cheap now isn't it?

Got any gold you'd like to sell? It's at an all time high. ;>)

[charlesphoto99]

Mitch,

 

Sorry to hear about your service troubles. Too bad Leica seems so hit and miss these days, both with service and QC on the gear. I feel fortunate to have a seemingly very good working M9. That wasn't the case with my first M8, or even the replacement for that one. Crossing my fingers.

 

Alas I have a feeling that you will have a very long wait for the M10 (at least according to some sources). Of course the Japanese will have dozens of cameras between now and then for you to cycle through but to me the only true shooting experience is with an M. The images are just exquisite. And is it really all that big for carry-on? I'm just back from Hawaii where I carried the M9 w/ 35 Lux, 24, and 50 Lux, along with a Canon camcorder, all in a small Hadley bag. No problems with tropical light and the LCDs that I could discern.

 

Anyway, happy shooting with the Ricohs. I'm sure you'll get some great stuff with them.

 

CP

[Rolo]

Mitch, Anyway, happy shooting with the Ricohs. I'm sure you'll get some great stuff with them.

CP

 

All the way Mitch, give them Ricohs hell. You deserve it.

[carcam]

Mitch- what if the M9 you got was flawless (well as flawless as an M9 could be)? Would you still feel the same about the Ricoh and selling your M9? I absolutely love my M9, with it's flaws and quirks and limitations and it's the first camera I'll grab in most situations. I might feel the same way as you if I had the problems you had but I can't imagine a Ricoh or GF1 or dslr being as much fun as this with the resulting quality like nothing I've ever used. I've enjoyed your pictures and you do well with the Leicas. I hope you're happy with your decision and not caught up in the emotion at the moment (I've been there many times). There are so many more people out there with no problem M9's than with- sorry it had to be you. Good luck and come back soon.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ShyTot]

they would replace my camera with a new one as soon as they received it.

 

I wasn't happy about that because I wanted a completely new camera

 

Yesterday, I sold the M9 for what I had paid for it, the buyer accepting that it was a new camera.

 

Mitch were you surprised to get you cash back ?

 

Do you think that Leica Service are smarter than you gave them credit for and spotted a scam whereby they provide a new in the box M9 and you sell it for MORE than you paid ?

 

Don't blame you Bitch, but those guys have gone up in my estimation.

 

Shyt