JonasYip Posted December 23, 2009 Share #21 Posted December 23, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) IMO it compares like this: M3 - 911 - big fun from the early seventies M6 - 911 Carrera 3.2 - best everyday historic Porsche M7 - 993 - best-ever air cooled car M8 - 996 - not loved by everyone but great everyday drive M9 - 997 - the current star yes, that works pretty well. Though perhaps the 993 is an MP... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 Hi JonasYip, Take a look here Leica Produces 4,000 M9!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest BigSplash Posted December 23, 2009 Share #22 Posted December 23, 2009 The problem is the production of M6s may last for ten years... with minor changes or improvements, but the M9 will be in production, how long? Two years? I doubt it, two years is too much time. Leica has to invest much money in a new M camera with the S2 electronics and software. The M9 provides resources and time. It is good, but not a long term consolidated trend. This high volume production will decrease in a year or so. I totally agree with you. I would add: The 10,000 annual number is for the mature M products. The M8 in its first year was apparently just under 20,000 units and then dropped down to 10,000 and eventually 8,000 in its final year. Leica need its seems to me to ship 20,000+ of the M9 in the first 12 months to make sufficient profit going forward. Dr Kaufmann had some very aggressive profit and revenue goals for the company that he wanted to meet over a 4 year period and 10,000 annually would not appear to meet these. I see the M9 as a stop gap as has been said by others. I believe the real camera materialises when they fit the S2 electronics inside and my guess is an announcement in 10/10/10 as the devt time is about right in my view. This seems to be in line with your thoughts also. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted December 23, 2009 Share #23 Posted December 23, 2009 IMO it compares like this:M3 - 911 - big fun from the early seventies M6 - 911 Carrera 3.2 - best everyday historic Porsche M7 - 993 - best-ever air cooled car M8 - 996 - not loved by everyone but great everyday drive M9 - 997 - the current star to be completed... I have no idea what I should compare the 2.7 RS to. If you every drove a RS you might know it has nothing to do with photographie beside the emotions you keep :-) ciao tpk I was thinking in terms of how bloated equipment and cars become over time due to the expectations of customers. In a M10 we have to assume its going to get more bloated with dials and switches (or worse, deeper menus). But like a 2.7 RS the M9 would be the last best simple M camera before the breed is made 'comfortable' with all the gizmo's that a DSLR may have. Lets be honest with oursleves, an M10 isn't going to be simpler or 'purer' is it? That the M9 is short lived in the history of Leica as rosuna suggests completes the analogy with a 2.7 RS lightweight. Its not about speed or reliablity or 'best of', because everything tends to 'beat' the last product through development. Its about where do you draw the line looking back at a range of cars, or cameras and say, 'that' is the defining point that changed the breed and in doing so is the truly important car or camera. OK, you might call the M3 the early 911 (I used the M8 example as we are talking about digital cameras), and it wasn't the complete package just like the car. But as soon as Porsche started actively supporting people who wanted to race the 911 (with the RS and RSR) the 911 brand took off around the world and became the phenomena it is today. But you might say that although the car got faster and more developed, the seats also got wider and more padded, so to speak. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted December 23, 2009 Share #24 Posted December 23, 2009 I see the M9 as a stop gap as has been said by others. I believe the real camera materialises when they fit the S2 electronics inside and my guess is an announcement in 10/10/10 as the devt time is about right in my view. This seems to be in line with your thoughts also. Just as well they don't employ you in the marketing department Frank. That would miss Photokina by about 2 weeks. As they say in TI Europe, that would be like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted December 23, 2009 Share #25 Posted December 23, 2009 This is according Leica Rumors. If so, we M9 owners are in a much more exclusive club than Porsche 911 owners (~ 7,000 a quarter) and for well under 10% of the investment! I should have instead bought two M9!! So, you bought a Leica M9 to be part of a exclusive club? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmobile Posted December 23, 2009 Share #26 Posted December 23, 2009 I am so pleased Leica has hit a home run on the M9; however, I disagree that the current body design is where it should end (with internal upgrades). Personally, I would like to see two things well within two years: An upgraded camera with better high ISO A subtly revised shell to include sealing, recessed buttons (or a lock) and subtle sculpting to improve grip or a built in thumb rest I will either get a m9 or its successor depending on finances, but I think if Leica sticks with the current unsealed capsule design they will pay for it in the long run. The basic IQ is there, no question. FF is great. It just needs some tweaks. I genuinely believe that the M10 could very well be all a person needs, but that claim is not possible with the camera as it is, good as it is. The argument that the lenses are not sealed holds no water ('scuse pun). While I will accept the risk of a CLA on a lens, a wrecked $7k body is another matter... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 23, 2009 Share #27 Posted December 23, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Umm-but the lenses form a way for water to get into the body... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 23, 2009 Share #28 Posted December 23, 2009 I totally agree with you. I would add: The 10,000 annual number is for the mature M products. The M8 in its first year was apparently just under 20,000 units and then dropped down to 10,000 and eventually 8,000 in its final year. Leica need its seems to me to ship 20,000+ of the M9 in the first 12 months to make sufficient profit going forward. Dr Kaufmann had some very aggressive profit and revenue goals for the company that he wanted to meet over a 4 year period and 10,000 annually would not appear to meet these. I see the M9 as a stop gap as has been said by others. I believe the real camera materialises when they fit the S2 electronics inside and my guess is an announcement in 10/10/10 as the devt time is about right in my view. This seems to be in line with your thoughts also. Any camera is a stopgap until the next one arrives... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted December 23, 2009 Share #29 Posted December 23, 2009 I would not request a complete watertight camera. But some protection against rain entering at the top plate (shutter release etc) would decrease the likelihood of a camera damage and make me feel more comfortable while shooting in the rain. Regards Steve Umm-but the lenses form a way for water to get into the body... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted December 23, 2009 Share #30 Posted December 23, 2009 Any camera is a stopgap until the next one arrives... Exactly. To remain competitive in the digital arena means embracing a much shorter product cycle than in the old days when an analog body might carry the flag for a decade. But to suggest that the M9 was simply a quick and dirty stopgap measure for Leica, while the M10 is finalized, is clearly wrong, IMHO. The notion that we will see an M10 in 2010 is beyond the pale. I'd bet a paycheck on it. I suspect M9 sales will track quite closely with what happened with the M8. 3-6 months to satisfy initial euphoric demand; then 12-18 months of robust, steady demand; and then a slackening of demand as what today seems a marvel begins to fall behind the technological curve. In that latter stage we may very well see an "updated" M9.2, with minor, mostly cosmetic changes, a la the M8.2. THAT, ladies and gentlemen, will be the stopgap camera. We'll see the M10 in 2012. 2011 at the earliest. 2013 at the latest. It will resemble the M9. It will retain the M ethos. But it will have much faster electronics. And it will have a 2-3 stops improvement in low-light, high-iso performance. And one or two other surprises. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
proenca Posted December 23, 2009 Share #31 Posted December 23, 2009 IMO it compares like this:M3 - 911 - big fun from the early seventies M6 - 911 Carrera 3.2 - best everyday historic Porsche M7 - 993 - best-ever air cooled car M8 - 996 - not loved by everyone but great everyday drive M9 - 997 - the current star to be completed... I have no idea what I should compare the 2.7 RS to. If you every drove a RS you might know it has nothing to do with photographie beside the emotions you keep :-) ciao tpk Ah ! My two favorites : Leica and Porsche, which I own both. But to be honest, I would do it rather differently : M3 - 911 - big fun from the early seventies MP Black Paint : 2.7 RS - gorgeous rarity M6 - 911 Carrera 3.2 - best everyday historic Porsche M7 - 996 : not loved by everyone but great everyday drive MP: 993 RS : emotion. pure. M8 - 996 C4S - ugly duck in the hardcore circles and not really have a concensus but a good bargain for everyday use and does the job right if the person who has it knows what hes doing M9 - 997 Turbo - awsome potential and almost too easy to pretend that YOU made it Oh and by the way, I own a 996 TT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_w Posted December 23, 2009 Share #32 Posted December 23, 2009 Why does Leica need to join the race and produce a new model every two years, anyway? For my 2c I think the digital photography development curve has reached or is reaching its plateau, at least for the current paradigm of still photography as we know it. Over 6 Mp, additional developments have only been providing more processing flexibility and/or capability for extreme demands such as very large prints. The rest is 'features', and Leica's approach has never been to compete in feature-wars. You could happily use an M8 for the next 50 years, taking photos every bit as good (technically) as in the last 50 years. Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmobile Posted December 23, 2009 Share #33 Posted December 23, 2009 Why does Leica need to join the race and produce a new model every two years, anyway? For my 2c I think the digital photography development curve has reached or is reaching its plateau, at least for the current paradigm of still photography as we know it. Over 6 Mp, additional developments have only been providing more processing flexibility and/or capability for extreme demands such as very large prints. The rest is 'features', and Leica's approach has never been to compete in feature-wars. You could happily use an M8 for the next 50 years, taking photos every bit as good (technically) as in the last 50 years. Robert I agree almost completely; however, it is not about joining a race but exploiting the availability of increasingly cost effective technology as and when it arrives to improve products. For those who would not need or desire weather sealing of better ISO performance a M9 with a thumbs up is about all you will ever need; however, for those that do genuinely need these things it is not there yet. 18MP is fine for me, but the high ISO is not, not for that money and in the knowledge that it will be better in a few years on the next model, so I will wait. Hopefully M9 sales will make upgrades and new models not only viable by keeping the company afloat but sooner and better if they bring in lots of revenue on the M9/S2 etc. As for the lens providing an entry point for water, true; however, it would not be too hard to modify the mount or body to include a simple seal to reduce water access thru the bayonet region. Snow hits the top plate and melts, can seep in through the plate join, where the RF windows are etc. Sealing these would be a good start after which sealed lenses would be nice... No doubt about it, Leica deserves great success with the M9 and could well be on their way into a new era of opportunity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo_Lorentzen Posted December 23, 2009 Share #34 Posted December 23, 2009 Agree, Leica (and everybody else pretty much) have with 18megapix reached a plateau where I do not really "need" more. My old Olympus E1 probably was enough for most of my work. That said, two thoughts... I bought the M8 and love the pictures it captured for me, I do not regret the investment, same for the M9, don't know if the M10 will tempt me, but I want the M9 now so I can photograph with it no, as far as I am concerned, working with it now, is worth the money it cost. A M9wr as in weather resistant would definitely get my credit card out instantly. so would a companion 35lux wr.! . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted December 23, 2009 Share #35 Posted December 23, 2009 A subtly revised shell to include sealing, recessed buttons (or a lock) and subtle sculpting to improve grip or a built in thumb rest Please, how many times? ...it would not be too hard to modify the mount or body to include a simple seal to reduce water access thru the bayonet region. Ah, deja-vu all over again... Another "expert". There is no such thing as a "simple seal" - I used to work for a company that made "packings, jointings, seals and gaskets" for everything from the Thames Flood Barrier to Rolex. What weatherproofing standard would you like it to be up to? You'll be telling me next that rubber is rubber... I see that this is degenerating into yet another wishlist/armchair CEO thread. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_w Posted December 23, 2009 Share #36 Posted December 23, 2009 I want the M9 now so I can photograph with it now, as far as I am concerned, working with it now, is worth the money it cost. To be sure, I am not saying Leica should never produce another model -- only that the race to produce acceptable digital cameras, generated by the disruptive technology breakthrough, is effectively over. The period of rapid obsolescence has passed. Companies no longer face bankruptcy just because they cannot keep up. I don't think Leica have to release new models driven by Moore's Law on a breathless 18 month cycle, although they still have to attract and serve customers -- as they always have done. Bo, I have my M9 on order too! Cheers Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmobile Posted December 23, 2009 Share #37 Posted December 23, 2009 Bill, You are right. How ridiculous for someone to suggest, let alone desire, things that are clearly impossible! I am not criticising the M9, I am not saying these things are easy. I am saying it would be great if these things could be worked into the next evolutions. Is that so bad? I seem to remember that FF was impossible and we were being chastised for even uttering the letter 'FF RF'. At least Leica seems to be listening... Please, how many times? Ah, deja-vu all over again... Another "expert". There is no such thing as a "simple seal" - I used to work for a company that made "packings, jointings, seals and gaskets" for everything from the Thames Flood Barrier to Rolex. What weatherproofing standard would you like it to be up to? You'll be telling me next that rubber is rubber... I see that this is degenerating into yet another wishlist/armchair CEO thread. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted December 23, 2009 Share #38 Posted December 23, 2009 Bill, You are right. How ridiculous for someone to suggest, let alone desire, things that are clearly impossible! I never said that... I am not criticising the M9, ...by omission, you are. I am not saying these things are easy. Yes you are, and THAT is what I take issue with. You said: ...however, it would not be too hard to modify the mount or body to include a simple seal to reduce water access thru the bayonet region. See? I am saying it would be great if these things could be worked into the next evolutions. Is that so bad? Yes. Not everyone wants the bloatware you do. I seem to remember that FF was impossible and we were being chastised for even uttering the letter 'FF RF'. FF WAS impossible. Then technology improved. At least Leica seems to be listening... I have never known them not to listen... I have no issue with evolution, what I am getting so fed up with is the "Mr Creosote" approach to change - "Just one more wafer thin thumb-grip..." Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
msk2193 Posted December 23, 2009 Share #39 Posted December 23, 2009 Why does Leica need to join the race and produce a new model every two years, anyway? Robert To keep traffic on the forum going of course, while we all anxiuosly pre-order, order, and wait, and then complain about slow delivery of the M10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
novice9 Posted December 23, 2009 Share #40 Posted December 23, 2009 Why the focus on weather sealing and why would Leica put the money into this item when only a very small proportion of the user base really needs it. Sure, I'd like to have it on my camera, but I used film M's for years, as did ten's of thousands of others, why would they see an imperative to weather seal now? Anyway, the gap between the M9 and M10 should be at least as long as that between the M8 and M9, which was what, 3 years? Those waiting for an M10 next year -- or likely even 2011 -- will be sorely dissapointed, imo. I could see an M9.2 offering a significantly larger memory buffer though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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