What's going on here (RED!) in Aperture?

[mongrelnomad]

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First, thank you to Len and Barry at R G Lewis - the camera's gorgeous and they've managed to infinitely improve the snowy, freezing cold Christmas period!

 

I loaded the first set of shots into Aperture, and all the colours are gorgeous: sharp, creamy - basically fantastic. Except the reds. There's NO detail in them, and they are completely over-saturated. Nothing I do in Aperture seems to help.

 

Anybody seen anything like this before?

 

Thanks,

Julian

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[jaapv]

C1 or Lightroom?It might be your version of Aperture lacks the correct profiles for the M9

[mongrelnomad]

C1 or Lightroom?It might be your version of Aperture lacks the correct profiles for the M9

 

It's Aperture. I'm loathe to install an entire new program just to temporarily deal with M9 files...

[adan]

A brief web search seems to indicate that Aperture has no capability for photographers to create their own camera color calibration profiles or even modify or correct the ones provided by Aperture.

 

Is that right?

 

If true, I'd be loathe to use Aperture under any circumstances. I have never had a digital camera that did not need tweaks to its profile (almost always including desaturating red to some extent). Trying to process RAW images without the ability to calibrate for each camera is like trying to process film without a thermometer (IMHO).

 

For example, Adobe Camera Raw has a calibration pane where one can set red, green, and blue hue & saturation - ideally, with an image of a MacBeth ColorChecker so one can match the RGB values for known color targets precisely.

 

But even without a source image, one can dial down red saturation in the calibration, distinct from the more basic global saturation controls. As I was able to do for the M9 in ACR prior to Adobe releasing their own profile (which still needed tweaking).

 

NB: camera calibration has NOTHING to do with monitor or printer calibration or profiling

 

I gather you've tried desaturating and lowering the luminance for the reds in the basic Aperture color adjustment panel, and that that is what has not worked?

[Eoin]

I haven't been keeping up to date with Aperture support for Leica.

I DL'd a red M9 file and I'd suggest you pull the boost in the RAW fine tuning brick back to .50 and play with the hue boost also.

 

Aperture appears to be using the canned DNG decode to read the M9 file, it should be pretty close as it reads the lookup tables imbedded in the DNG. But a general DNG code might be slightly overcooked with the boost settings.

 

There was an update to camera raw support a few days ago which included the decodes for the Canon 7D, I'm not sure if there were any additions for your M9, it might be worth a look.

[MJones]

rec'd from Jono Slack here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/109627-m9-not-list-cameras-apple-raw.html

 

"Aperture does a fine job with M9 files - drop 'boost' by 50% and increase red hue by 10% and you're cooking! "

 

I don't know about custom profiles but a specific preset can be created and then applied at input if that helps.

[nryn]

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I use an M9 with Aperture. If that image is representative of your results, something is wrong.

 

Even with prior cameras, I set boost to < 50% and save it as a default for the camera. But that won't solve the problem above.

[mongrelnomad]

I'll show you a few other examples.

 

The first is a red reflection...

 

The second a red light (the LEDs over the man's head)...

 

The third seems to be a light-source on the other side of the glass...

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[mongrelnomad]

And this seems to show the red issue quite eloquently... Again, straight from the camera, RAW -> JPEG...

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[MJones]

Julian,

 

Sometimes I get that "yellow" look on M8 with mixed lighting when my auto white balanced can't figure it out. That doesn't explain the red but maybe part of the issue with Aperture not having M9 profile.

 

Also, I think you noted this, but you're using RAW, right? Not just jpeg out of the camera.

 

And to also add to getting Apple to hurry up - here's apple Aperture feedback form. Fill in and request M9 profile update. Can't hurt to let them know your frustration (maybe mention dlux4 update too .

Apple - Aperture - Feedback

[mongrelnomad]

Thanks for the reply: the yellow I have no problem with - it's a very normal reaction to tungsten light. It is the red/purple blow-outs and extreme-saturation that I'm worried about.

 

All of these were taken with the Noctilux f.95 - I'll head out with another lense tomorrow and see if this is replicated...

 

(Just to be clear: all images here are adjustment-free RAW files (compressed), converted to JPEG to post here)

 

Julian,

 

Sometimes I get that "yellow" look on M8 with mixed lighting when my auto white balanced can't figure it out. That doesn't explain the red but maybe part of the issue with Aperture not having M9 profile.

 

Also, I think you noted this, but you're using RAW, right? Not just jpeg out of the camera.

 

And to also add to getting Apple to hurry up - here's apple Aperture feedback form. Fill in and request M9 profile update. Can't hurt to let them know your frustration (maybe mention dlux4 update too .

Apple - Aperture - Feedback

[nryn]

Julian,

 

If you send me the RAW files I can verify on my machine and maybe give you some strategies for dealing with it.

 

I admit I haven't shot extensively with the M9 yet, but in the 100-200 shots I've taken, I haven't seen anything like this (and all my photos go through Aperture).

 

The image in the mirror seems like a white balance problem. Other than the window's blue spots, the first three it's hard to tell what's wrong, (I'm not saying nothing is wrong, just hard to diagnose, since I don't know what the scenes looked like) though I agree that certain colors seem oversaturated.

 

PM me if you want to send me something.

[MJones]

Have you tried with any other lens to see how Noct affect the image?

[mongrelnomad]

Update: I've now shot extensively with my 50 Elmar Collapsible (latest model) as well and there appears to be a serious problem with red-coloured fabrics. They take on a bright pink colour and go mad...

[nryn]

Quick update: Julian sent me some images, which I processed in both LR and Aperture. At least one of the images, him (I assume) in a red shirt, seemed normal to me, albeit underexposed; he's seeing hot pink on his monitor.

 

The other images he sent (which are already posted in the thread above) do have highly saturated patches, but it's difficult for me to determine whether these are part of the scene or part of the captured image. The saturated patches did appear in both LR and Aperture.

[mongrelnomad]

Thanks Naryan for taking the time to look these over.

 

This is a crop from the aforementioned shot - note that the red Leica dot and the T-shirt in reality are very similar reds. The shirt, to my eyes at least, seems very pink...

 

I've imported all my shots to Lightroom as well, and though the problem is still pronounced, it is still very much there...

 

I think the main problem is the over-saturation of the reds. All the other colours are so true-to-life that these really throw the image out...

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[adan]

I just have to repeat myself (and add a little):

 

1. Unless the raw developer program is using a good profile for the camera, the color will be wonky. And reds will be among the wonkiest.

 

2. A "good profile" (IMHO) rarely includes the canned profiles provided by Adobe, Apple, or Leica/Jenoptik (or Nikon, Sony, or Panasonic, for that matter). They always need further calibration to get the blue/yellow, and red, hue and saturation right.

 

We went all through this a couple of months ago when all we had was the "embedded" color profile/calibration from Leica. A lot of people thought the reds (skin tones especially) were too pink and too saturated. Once those that knew how ran their own calibrations using a Color Checker, the problem went away.

 

3. Tungsten, halogen, sodium, or fluorescent lights, especially, require their own, different profiling/calibration, because the distribution of light wavelengths are so different from daylight. They will always oversaturate reds and shift them towards pink, and therefore need the red saturation dialed even lower and the hue shifted further towards yellow and away from magenta.

 

4. Finally, incorrect white-balance will introduce its own errors. If you like (or accept) the color casts introduced by artifical light, that's fine - but I guess what I hear you saying is "I don't mind my face being turned pea-soup yellow/green, but I want the reds to be accurate."

 

And that just ain't gonna happen - all colors are interwined - if one is off, the others will be, too, one way or another.

 

The following phrase is note-worthy: "all images here are adjustment-free RAW files."

 

The whole point of shooting RAW is: to make adjustments. Looking at an unadjusted RAW image is like sticking a color negative into the enlarger with no color filter pack and exposing for a random pre-determined time without doing a test strip. Of course the image will be horrible (except by accidental luck).

 

Action plan:

 

1. Use a program that allows calbrating for the camera (sounds like you have LightRoom now, which should work)

 

2. Get a Macbeth ColorChecker card, shoot it under various types of light (at a minimum, direct sunlight and household artificial light (tungsten or whatever the new EU laws require)) - and then use the images of the Colorchecker and Lightroom's calibration panel to set and save as defaults, or presets, calibrations for each different light source.

 

If you don't want to buy a ColorChecker target card (they aren't cheap), then here are the settings I use in LightRoom's cousin Adobe Camera Raw 5.6b with the "Adobe Standard" base profile (NOT "Embedded"!) as a reasonable starting point:

 

Shadow tint -2 (green)

Red hue: +10 (for daylight) +29 (for most artifical light) - shifts red interpretation towards yellow

Red Sat: -10 (for daylight) -15 (for artificial)

Green hue: + 5 (daylight) +8 (artificial)

Green Sat: 0 (daylight) -15 (artificial)

Blue Hue: 0 (all light)

Blue Sat: -50 (all light)

 

Here is how reds progressed, in Adobe Camera RAW, in an image under yellow (tungsten) light, from basic unprofiled unadjusted image to an adjusted image with my own camera calibration for tungsten light. Obviously the "canned" profiles from Leica "Embedded" and Adobe Standard leave reds magenta and oversaturated.

 

If Aperture doesn't fully support the M9 yet, it is probably using the "embedded" profile (top right image)

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[mongrelnomad]

Adan - thank you so much. There are one or two photos that appear to be unhelped, but generally, your advice has fixed many many shots. Do you have any more tips/tricks?

 

I just have to repeat myself (and add a little):

 

1. Unless the raw developer program is using a good profile for the camera, the color will be wonky. And reds will be among the wonkiest.

 

2. A "good profile" (IMHO) rarely includes the canned profiles provided by Adobe, Apple, or Leica/Jenoptik (or Nikon, Sony, or Panasonic, for that matter). They always need further calibration to get the blue/yellow, and red, hue and saturation right.

 

We went all through this a couple of months ago when all we had was the "embedded" color profile/calibration from Leica. A lot of people thought the reds (skin tones especially) were too pink and too saturated. Once those that knew how ran their own calibrations using a Color Checker, the problem went away.

 

3. Tungsten, halogen, sodium, or fluorescent lights, especially, require their own, different profiling/calibration, because the distribution of light wavelengths are so different from daylight. They will always oversaturate reds and shift them towards pink, and therefore need the red saturation dialed even lower and the hue shifted further towards yellow and away from magenta.

 

4. Finally, incorrect white-balance will introduce its own errors. If you like (or accept) the color casts introduced by artifical light, that's fine - but I guess what I hear you saying is "I don't mind my face being turned pea-soup yellow/green, but I want the reds to be accurate."

 

And that just ain't gonna happen - all colors are interwined - if one is off, the others will be, too, one way or another.

 

The following phrase is note-worthy: "all images here are adjustment-free RAW files."

 

The whole point of shooting RAW is: to make adjustments. Looking at an unadjusted RAW image is like sticking a color negative into the enlarger with no color filter pack and exposing for a random pre-determined time without doing a test strip. Of course the image will be horrible (except by accidental luck).

 

Action plan:

 

1. Use a program that allows calbrating for the camera (sounds like you have LightRoom now, which should work)

 

2. Get a Macbeth ColorChecker card, shoot it under various types of light (at a minimum, direct sunlight and household artificial light (tungsten or whatever the new EU laws require)) - and then use the images of the Colorchecker and Lightroom's calibration panel to set and save as defaults, or presets, calibrations for each different light source.

 

If you don't want to buy a ColorChecker target card (they aren't cheap), then here are the settings I use in LightRoom's cousin Adobe Camera Raw 5.6b with the "Adobe Standard" base profile (NOT "Embedded"!) as a reasonable starting point:

 

Shadow tint -2 (green)

Red hue: +10 (for daylight) +29 (for most artifical light) - shifts red interpretation towards yellow

Red Sat: -10 (for daylight) -15 (for artificial)

Green hue: + 5 (daylight) +8 (artificial)

Green Sat: 0 (daylight) -15 (artificial)

Blue Hue: 0 (all light)

Blue Sat: -50 (all light)

 

Here is how reds progressed, in Adobe Camera RAW, in an image under yellow (tungsten) light, from basic unprofiled unadjusted image to an adjusted image with my own camera calibration for tungsten light. Obviously the "canned" profiles from Leica "Embedded" and Adobe Standard leave reds magenta and oversaturated.

 

If Aperture doesn't fully support the M9 yet, it is probably using the "embedded" profile (top right image)

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[Alnitak]

Adan, what program do you use with your ColorChecker to create the profiles?

 

Jeff

[adan]

Julian: you used up my brain power for the weekend. I'd just say that, once you get a good understanding of using the calibration controls, and a good base calibration - then feel free to play a bit with those settings. E.G. if one mostly shoots green landscapes, one could set up and save a calibration preset similar to Nikon's "landscape" picture style, with the green hue shifted far to the right. Less yellow foliage (but maybe red and magentas that are TOO yellow for general use.)

 

Jeff: I just use the calibration pane in Adobe Camera Raw. I assume Lightroom has a similar control pane since it is also an Adobe product.

 

What one does is shoot a ColorChecker under the appropriate lighting, open the image in Camera Raw, and get the overall settings right (white balance of the middle gray colorchecker patch, exposure, brightness, etc).

 

Then one goes to the calibration pane, and adjusts the two sliders for each of the primary colors, while reading the RGB values for the three primary color patches as they appear in the image, with the eyedropper/cursor hovering over the image of the patch.

 

Target values for those three patches (and indeed all 24 of the colors on the Color Checker) are available through some Google searching. They vary depending on which color space one has chosen to work in.

 

(Here's one set of values - go to top of page 5 in the pdf for the right chart): http://www.babelcolor.com/download/RGB%20Coordinates%20of%20the%20Macbeth%20ColorChecker.pdf

 

 

So one reads the green patch, and slides the Green saturation slider to increase or decrease the amount of red and blue in the green patch (more saturation = less red and blue), and slides the Green hue slider to adjust the balance between red and blue in the green patch.

 

E.G. the target value for the primary Green patch, in Adobe 1998 color space, is 99R/148G/80B. If your camera imaged that patch as, say, 118R/145G/82B, you would increase saturation a bit, (reducing both red and blue) and shift hue towards blue to bring it back up until all three numbers match the "published" numbers.

 

Then do the same for the blue and red patches, using the red and blue pairs of sliders.

 

It is a multiple regression (right phrase?) process - i.e. once one has done all three colors, the green values will have shifted a bit, so it make take 2-4 passes through all three colors, tweaking each over and over, until they are all in agreement. Agreement meaning within 1 point or so of the published values.

 

Then you can save those settings as a calibration preset and apply that preset to any other image without messing with the individual sliders in future. You can even make it the default setting, so that all images automatically open with that calibration (say, for daylight) - and then apply less used calibration presets (say, sodium vapor) to those special images that need them.