Who would like an M 9 autofocus?

[Vip]

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Could be another way around to have focus confirmation and expand the possible use of an M camera without touching the beautiful RF: having, like in GF1, an electronic viewfinder that can be fit in the hot shoe. This can show the enlarged image for difficult subject, macros, longer lens. This without changing the base of an M and live it as an option as it is now the optical viewfinder for the 16-21 mm.

In addition, this small option can allow many to use less their DSLR as Canon or Nikon and stay with Leica quality more often.

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[lct]

Yes but this small option won't do miracles. You'll have to do stop down metering and the EVF will be very noisy at small apertures. No free lunch i'm afraid.

[jaapv]

It would be a bit like a latter-day Visoflex, only stuck to the top/ back. I fear it would share the fate of the Visoflex of being second-rate compared to dedicated cameras, a thing that makes nearly every Visoflex you find virtually unused.

[Vip]

Yes but this small option won't do miracles. You'll have to do stop down metering and the EVF will be very noisy at small apertures.

This is true! but any way you can ceck focus and choose the framing at open aperture till medium aperture with not so big difficulties. Any way this is something MORE ( expanding the application field) that we can have without destroying the M personality.

[lct]

Agree.

[astabla]

I bought the Contax G2 years ago, because it had equally good lenses AND and autofocus. It was a pitty you could not use manual focus vey well with this camera. My fear is a little bit that with the vey hig resolution of te chip, the manual focus also comes to it's limits. But admit, the M9 is a wonderful peace of camera.

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Astabla you are perfectly right, but an optional focus confirmation I think is the best of the two word

[LondonM]

I'd really like to see an electronic focus aid. Just like the red >o< for exposure, maybe a green >o< for focus, using the current focus patch and with arrows indicating focus direction.

 

This keeps the legacy of M lenses alive. You provide the motor power with your hand, and the camera tells you if the focus patch is in focus and which way to turn the focus tab, just as the exposure indicators work. It would be much faster than those of us who are visually challenged with bifocals, you can chose to turn it off it you want, or you can chose to ignore it if its on.

 

Such a system could live in parallel with the existing RF. So you can line up your edges if you want.

 

That's all an M needs. Anything else and it's not an M. It's an O, P or Q.

[AlanG]

Yes but this small option won't do miracles. You'll have to do stop down metering and the EVF will be very noisy at small apertures. No free lunch i'm afraid.

 

In bright situations, it certainly won't be noisy when the lens is stopped down. And I have used my 5DII for dusk shots stopped down and don't find the noise to be a significant problem - viewing through a Zacuto loup often with 10x magnification for focusing.

 

To question the advantages of having such an incredibly useful feature as live view in any camera seems absurd to me at this point. But maybe some people just don't need it because the way they use a camera is not that precise and critical.

 

A big advantage to using live view in low light is that it gives you a bright image.

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[bill]

To question the advantages of having such an incredibly useful feature as live view in any camera seems absurd to me at this point. But maybe some people just don't need it because the way they use a camera is not that precise and critical.

 

Alan, you have hit the nail on the head.

 

My use is different to yours. I am not alone in that. Your use does not seem "absurd" to me, just... different. To each their own. I would no more use an M Leica for "...precise and critical" work than I would open a tin of beans with an aardvark.

 

If I want to shoot macro, or tele, I use a DSLR, not an M. If I want to carve the joint I use a carving knife, not a Swiss army knife.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[lct]

...I have used my 5DII for dusk shots stopped down and don't find the noise to be a significant problem...

Good news then. What slow apertures can you use that way?

[jaapv]

In bright situations, it certainly won't be noisy when the lens is stopped down. And I have used my 5DII for dusk shots stopped down and don't find the noise to be a significant problem - viewing through a Zacuto loup often with 10x magnification for focusing.

 

To question the advantages of having such an incredibly useful feature as live view in any camera seems absurd to me at this point. But maybe some people just don't need it because the way they use a camera is not that precise and critical.

 

A big advantage to using live view in low light is that it gives you a bright image.

You don't have to convince me of that, you just have to convince me that a stick-on thingy on an M camera can match that performance....

[AlanG]

Alan, you have hit the nail on the head.

 

My use is different to yours. I am not alone in that. Your use does not seem "absurd" to me, just... different. To each their own. I would no more use an M Leica for "...precise and critical" work than I would open a tin of beans with an aardvark.

 

If I want to shoot macro, or tele, I use a DSLR, not an M. If I want to carve the joint I use a carving knife, not a Swiss army knife.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

This seems logical on its face but contradicts what I have found in practice. A few years ago I bought a tiny Canon p&s because it had an optical viewfinder. While that is useful and is how I previously always worked, I started using the LCD for composition more and more because I realized a lot of images I shot needed more accurate framing. Even on a p&s it is nice to be able to frame and focus accurately when I need it.

[A_E_Darling]

An auto focus lens on an M camera is like a Ferrari with an automatic transmission.

 

Yes but there are several types of automatic. Don't be surprised to see double clutch auto change in a Ferrari, it is already in some high performance German cars like BMW M series, Audi and VW.

 

Something which makes skilled driving or photography easier is always worth considering.

[A_E_Darling]

If a camera of the size of an M9 which had the autofocus ability of the best DSLR's was possible I would certainly vote with my credit card.

Having a good autofocus system surely would never be a good reason NOT to buy a camera.

But although Leica has traditionally promoted the idea that rangefinder cameras are better in low light with wide angle lenses than SLR's, I suspect that this is no longer true when you stop using the SLR screen to determine focus point and go for the modern DSLR focus aids.

[AlanG]

Good news then. What slow apertures can you use that way?

 

This is a tricky question and is subjective. The 5DII's live view primarily designed for use wide open with auto diaphragm lenses. Exposure simulation is limited and won't really boost the display brightness past a certain point.

 

The 5DII has two different live view display modes - exposure simulation and auto brightness. I usually use the exposure simulation mode so that the LCD will reflect my aperture, ISO and f stop settings.

 

I did a test where exposure simulation was turned off so the camera would try to give a viewable image on the LCD regardless of the exposure settings. I took my camera to my darkish basement and mounted a manual diaphragm lens on the camera, set it at f8, 1 second at ISO 1000 and the image was very bright and noise free. At 10x magnification, focusing was easy but you could see some color noise on the display. No big deal. What I found is that this exposure setting is about the limit where you can open the lens up and then stop it down without the LCD getting darker.

 

So that amount of light is probably the limit of what you can use and still have a screen that simulates the correct exposure when the lens is stopped down. Anything darker and the LCD screen will be darker than the actual exposure. This would translate to using an f2.8 auto diaphragm lens (at any aperture) at around 8 seconds at ISO 1000. But I don't see why future cameras couldn't have more boost to the display for even lower light shooting.

[AlanG]

Originally Posted by jamriman View Post

An auto focus lens on an M camera is like a Ferrari with an automatic transmission.

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

I hate these car analogies but Ferrari is like the total opposite of Leica. Their cars (especially the F1 models) are the research and development platforms for all kinds of advanced features and materials. For the past 10 years or so most Ferraris have been sold with what is effectively an automatic (F1) transmission.

 

F1 to GT - F1 Technology Transfer to GT Cars

 

"Changing gear on the 430 Scuderia, for instance, takes just 60 milliseconds..."

[lct]

...I did a test where exposure simulation was turned off so the camera would try to give a viewable image on the LCD regardless of the exposure settings. I took my camera to my darkish basement and mounted a manual diaphragm lens on the camera, set it at f8, 1 second at ISO 1000 and the image was very bright and noise free....

Thank you Alan. Do you think a result like this can be expected from an EVF in stop down viewing?

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[AlanG]

Thank you Alan. Do you think a result like this can be expected from an EVF in stop down viewing?

 

That was using stop down metering. Wide open at f2 you could work in a situation where 16 seconds at ISO 1000 was the correct exposure. If the light is any darker than this, e.g. if you set the camera to f2 for 30 seconds at ISO 1000, the screen will be about a stop darker than the image as it can only boost the LCD so much.

 

I really have no idea what Leica may or may not do with the M platform in the future. It seems to me that there is the possibility of many different ways of improving overall image quality and adding some features even if the actual camera design and rangefinder/viewfinder remains the same. Maybe even live view and a clip on EVF. This could be very useful to many shooters in various applications.

 

But we all know that the legacy features of the M really put a crimp on adding other technology to it. For instance live view will work in stopped down mode but would have more range in low light with auto diaphragm lenses. Electronic communication between the body and lens is useful. Many people find zoom lenses to be useful. I can't see any practical way to add AF or focus confirmation to the M unless it is to be used in live view mode. How many kludges would you want on this camera?

 

If Leica wants to have a significant role as a camera maker with a long term future, they will have to embrace technology and apply it to a totally new camera platform (M size or smaller) that is capable of being a fully functioned modern system that has comparable features to other technologically advanced cameras. I guess they could also keep making a traditional M model as long as it is profitable to do so. Heck, Rollei was still making a twin lens model until they went out of business. I think SLRs' days are numbered (except for some pro cameras for a while) so this could be an opportunity for Leica to make a great leap. (Should they have the ability to produce it.)

[lct]

OK Alan but there is no EVF on the 5D2 is it? So do you expect that an EVF can get the same kind result as that of a (bigger) LCD as far as noise?