RPS Posted December 10, 2009 Share #21 Posted December 10, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...and the trend is...? I don't see any "compelling event" right now that would necessitate a separate R sub-forum. In other words, nothing has changed from a day, a week or a month ago, except for the silent drip of people selling out of a currently defunct system. Well ... given that perspective, perhaps we should just divert all R-system threads to the "Leica Collectors & Historica" section of LUF. Bill, since you use both R and M equipment, it's understandable that you would not see a "compelling event" that would necessitate a separate R sub-forum. However, as one who owns no M equipment - and is not likely to ever own any M equipment - I actively dislike having to wade through the plethora of M oriented threads looking for topics of value to me. Threads dealing with the M-system simply hold no interest for me at all. It seems really odd to me that there's sufficient justification for an M9 forum, an M8 forum, an X1 forum and an S2 forum, but the entire R-system is rendered relatively anonymous. If this were a forum owned and operated by Leica I could understand that lineup as a way for them to promote the sales of their current and future systems. But, this is the Leica Users Forum - not the Leica Buyers Forum. There are many of us looking for discussions aimed at extending the life of our R-system gear and for threads that help us solve problems we encounter. Is it too much to ask that these threads be organized into a discrete section? The decision, of course, is up to Andreas and I'm sure he will make a wise decision. But, I don't see how a subforum dedicated to R-users, and our particular interests, gets in anybody's way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 10, 2009 Posted December 10, 2009 Hi RPS, Take a look here The Leica R system own sub forum...?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mhoersch Posted December 10, 2009 Share #22 Posted December 10, 2009 Well, we've had an S2 Forum for more than a year now, and the S2 isn't even on the market yet. Why not have an R Forum, even if Leica have abandoned their customers for good? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted December 10, 2009 Share #23 Posted December 10, 2009 Bill - out of curiosity, what R equipment do you actually own currently? I thought you were more from the Digilux crowd... Regards, Far from it... R7, 50 summicron, 35-70, 180. Not to mention my II. M2, M7... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted December 10, 2009 Share #24 Posted December 10, 2009 Far from it... R7, 50 summicron, 35-70, 180. Not to mention my II. M2, M7... Regards, Bill Fair enough... Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicamann Posted December 10, 2009 Share #25 Posted December 10, 2009 It seems really odd to me that there's sufficient justification for an M9 forum, an M8 forum, an X1 forum and an S2 forum, but the entire R-system is rendered relatively anonymous. If this were a forum owned and operated by Leica I could understand that lineup as a way for them to promote the sales of their current and future systems. But, this is the Leica UsersBuyers Forum. Forum - not the Leica Odd..... lets put into simple terms..R is not sexy, R lost money for Leica at just about every turn, Leica admits they "hated" the R system R doesn't make you "Elite" but M will , M has now been "de- Elited" by the S2 system..so now to be "Elite" you need to buy an S system. Erwin puts had his "Final say" about the R system in his latest paper..... he is the "cult leader" so his word is final. Even if we didn't enunciate all the reasons in type, its a "sous- entendu" that M is what puts you in a "Class"...R does not..even though Leica;s last offering in the R lenses was about $8500.00 US. Its all about snobbery and labels and marketing. Is all the above stupid and worthless , yup, for a professional it doesn't matter, whatever tool works best and sometimes thats the Panasonic DMC- S7A..whatever gets the job done and saves the bacon. We all know that there is a huge group of people that use Leica R, I know about 40 people here in town that use Leica R, but they are not members of this forum, they quitely go on enjoying their R gear Have the people who have invested literally 10's of thousand of dollars in the R system been let down by Leica and "overlooked by this forum?...yup..you bet ya. Is that a stupid move on Leicas part?yup and they will see many , many people migrate to Nikon or Canon because of it...that means a BIG loss of long time loyal Leica customers...but I guess that doesn't matter in this day and age. Leica was in Financial meltdown for many years, they had to make drastic decisions or sink into History. Maybe at some point when they get their financial house back in order, they will come back and finish the transition to a full frame R10 digital body. Cheers, JRM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnelsch Posted December 11, 2009 Share #26 Posted December 11, 2009 Why don't we just hijack this forum? Since there are forums for every other Leica, R users are about the only ones left here. Bill in Denver Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted December 11, 2009 Share #27 Posted December 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well, since the M8 is no longer manufactured, and nor are the screw mount anachronisms, maybe a saving in admin time could be made closing them too Bill? Two less places to keep the eye on for new posts, and reduce the historicals propensity for lense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barneybm Posted December 14, 2009 Share #28 Posted December 14, 2009 I think the strongest arguments for a separate R forum on this site are: 1. It was a distinct Leica product (whether Leica actually liked the R system or not); 2. People who use the R system obviously consider themselves part of a unique community; 3. I believe that Dr. Kaufmann himself suggested that R users consider themselves part of a "minority group"; 4. R users will encounter distinct problems that will not be discussed or resolved in any other forum; 5. If we have to set up an R user forum on an outside site, we will be driven away from a site that was supposed to be set up for all leica users. I would like to ask Andy if there are any special costs in establishing an R forum, and if there are, I will be happy to pay them and also to moderate the forum. I don't think R users were treated entirely fairly by Leica (although I do understand the economics of the decision). However, I do not understand the perverse reluctance of this great and valuable website to acknowledge that there are thousands of R users out there who want to have a community of their own and need it -- since there is no other place where they can share information easily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted December 14, 2009 Share #29 Posted December 14, 2009 You need to ask Andreas, not me, but I know what the answer will be. Andreas said in the Autumn that there MAY be an opportunity to merge the M8/9 sub-sections sometime next year. If that were the case, then I could see an argument for a complete rationalisation of the forum sub-sections, into more camera specific categories. I reckon you would need at least 8 sub-sections, if not more. I have to stress that I am speaking in a personal capacity here, and in no way on behalf of the "management", over whom I have no influence. However, the more that the forum is ghettoised, the less cross-talk and learning goes on. For those of you who have been around a while, you will recall that there used to be just one "Customer" section. All conversations (excluding the Photo sections) were carried out in that, and I for one learned a lot from reading about Leicas that I didn't own, or thought I had little interest in. That's why there are now a Barnack, two Ms and two R bodies on my shelf... because I learned about them in that section. If you make very specific sub-sections, then that opportunity as lost. This has been proven with the M8 and M9 sections. There are members who NEVER venture out beyond those sub-sections. That's fair enough, but I do believe that is not healthy for the forum, necessarily, and that they are missing out on a whole lot of Leica. Moderation is not an issue, but the more sub-sections there are, the more management will be required. I see myself as part of the Leica community, not a specific camera. Even if I was lucky enough to only own one Leica, I would still see myself as part of the whole community, not just one section of it. Maybe that's just me. Finally, you will never have a structure that pleases everyone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 15, 2009 Share #30 Posted December 15, 2009 Personally, I'm all for an R forum: we've needed it for awhile. If people don't want to venture out of a given forum, so be it. If they don't know how to use a hypertext link, then the chances of them learning something about a new Leica offering is slight at best. There are some fora I don't usually venture into--the customer forum mainly but also the bar... but that doesn't mean I couldn't go there. It doesn't mean that there's a "ghetto" there (boy I hate using that word in this context!!) or that I'm cut off from learning. Sheesh! Categorization helps IMO if it's consistent. I personally hate wading through the small cam stuff (just not interested, though the X1 is different--and has its own section) to get to the R stuff, personally. FWIW, I'd suggest that based on technical families (a nice consistent way to categorize) there be simply 6 technical fora (so not including the photo forum, which I get)...M, R, S, X, Digilux (or whatever you want to group the small cams under) and Processing. Of course non-technical fora would still exist as well... Film users go to their camera family category and there can be M/Film and R/Film sub-fora there. Processing sub-fora can include digital and film and printing, which is for both. That way everyone could keep track of the kinds of cameras / lenses Leica provides for the given solution, whether it's film or digital, and over time, less-used fora can be archived. Right now the fora is defined by medium and sort of by market, which is weird. In the end, I think this would be much more consistent and easy to follow. It also makes it clear they're camera / technical fora, not photography fora: M \Film R \Film S X Digilux Processing \Film \Digital \Printing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted December 15, 2009 Share #31 Posted December 15, 2009 So, where do the C-Luxes and D-Luxes go? Where do the screw thread Leicas go? Where do the M8s and M9s go? DMR? What about lenses? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicamann Posted December 15, 2009 Share #32 Posted December 15, 2009 Good point Andy..what about the screw mount system, many folks are taking a shine to this very nice system and given that with a small fee you can put ANY M lens on the old screw mount cameras. There has been renewed interest in these cameras not just for their collectiblility ...but "obsession " with the M8 and M9 has almost completely blotted that out. Maybe we simply need to simply start some threads in the "Customer" section or film section and go from there. Lastly apart from having an "R" sub section and all that jazz I think the greater point is being missed out. That is Leica R customers feel they have been "archived" and bypassed and after this Septembers announcement completely let down . I think many of us feel frustrated and betrayed and feel that there is a form of "brand " elitism going on....adding insult to injury...Leica "almost" giving us the impression that the R system doesn't exist and was simply an embarrassment..sort of like the homeless people int downtown Vancouver that are being sanitized" off the streets" for the Olympics..like they never existed. No one "enjoys" the feeling of being marginalized,,,no one..for what ever the rational is. Many of use have put large sums of money into Leica glass and equipment, it would go a long way for Leica to be somewhat sensitive and responsive to a significant part of their customer base. Indifference, might give Leica some short term funds to please the shareholders and Banks , but the long-term cost in alienating its R customer base will be significant. Its up to Leica to come to understand this. I know this for a fact, as soon as you "don't give a damn" about your customers, you are in trouble, no matter how healthy the bank account looks for now. To be responsive to your customers is good business sense. Cheers, JRM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 15, 2009 Share #33 Posted December 15, 2009 So, where do the C-Luxes and D-Luxes go? Where do the screw thread Leicas go? Where do the M8s and M9s go? DMR? What about lenses? Really easy, Andy--think about it a bit... The M8 and M9 cameras would go under M. I wouldn't have separate sections for these. DMR goes under R. Film users (and film M use) goes under the requisite film sub-category. Lenses go under M and R (and S and X when needed), respectively. Yes, you might get, with lenses, some cross-pollination into the film sub-categories, but to the extent a 50 Lux ASPH M doesn't work the same on an M8 (less-so on an M9) that's ok with me. A good scheme is not a perfect scheme, but it's better than a bad one The Luxes go under Digilux (or, as I said, whatever you'd like to call 'em). Very straightforward. If you need a pre-M category then create it. It's very consistent and logical. Naturally you wouldn't need a film sub-category there, because it's all film. In the same way, you don't need an film S-sub-category, because it's all digital. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted December 15, 2009 Share #34 Posted December 15, 2009 On the general issue of forum organization, I'd say a revamp is in order at some point. There were good reasons to set off "Digital" for example, when digital was a new, unique and even limited part of Leica's business. Which eventually grew M8, then M9, X1, S2 branches. But now we are getting a bit of "urban sprawl". If I might suggest the following forum breakdown for future consideration: Leica M (film and digital) Leica R (film and digital) Leica S Leica compact cameras (film and digital) Leica screwmount and collectibles (and in 20-30 years, maybe the R system ends up here - or not) Leica lenses (all types) Leica corporate and culture (non-equipment-specific posts of all kinds: price increases, service, financials, CEO-wannabees, etc) Processing (film and digital - but perhaps with distinct sub-fora within for each) + photo forums as approriate and Barnack's Bar etc. I'm an M9 photographer today, but have things to learn and things to contribute in most of the other categories. And it is a bit strange to have separate "My 75 Summicron is off at infinity" threads in 3 different places (M9, M8, Customer) when there could be a lens forum for all lens questions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted December 15, 2009 Share #35 Posted December 15, 2009 ...And it is a bit strange to have separate "My 75 Summicron is off at infinity" threads in 3 different places (M9, M8, Customer) when there could be a lens forum for all lens questions. You'll still get people posting lens questions in the M digital forum and to be fair there are issues with those cameras which justify discussion (coding, IR, pink corners, back focus etc) which aren't relevant for film M users. I don't know, we've gotten along OK thus far with the Digital and Film forums. The M8 forum was set up due enormous interest. Personally I'd rather see some consolidation - let the M9 fuss die down then merge the M8/9 forums back under the catch all Digital forum, same with the X1, so were back to just Digital and Film forums (I'd keep a separate S2 section as its a different product altogether, News/About the forum merged, Customer, Collectors or Leica Thread Mount, bar, meetings & photo forums too). Otherwise it makes more sense in a way - and easier for newcomers - to have a sub forum for every model, including the R and Digilux. I had a quick look at the Facebook R forum. Not exactly a flood of info on there and nothing that can't be found with a quick search here, but its early days of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 15, 2009 Share #36 Posted December 15, 2009 {snipped}"My 75 Summicron is off at infinity" threads in 3 different places (M9, M8, Customer) when there could be a lens forum for all lens questions. That works for me too, Andy, though personally I don't like splitting the lenses up into a separate place. Might be ok for M only, but it's a bit weird for S or R. I'd also figured the lens questions might still--worst case--get copied into different body places, but that might add some context (IOW if it's off on your M8 then people would know that from the forum distinction without actually having to read the post; with a separate lens forum it begs the question each time which M, which R, though which S seems silly right now it might not always be that way...). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 15, 2009 Share #37 Posted December 15, 2009 {snipped}I had a quick look at the Facebook R forum. Not exactly a flood of info on there and nothing that can't be found with a quick search here, but its early days of course. There are those of us who can't log in for mysterious Facebook reasons Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguewave Posted December 15, 2009 Share #38 Posted December 15, 2009 I think that it's imperative to have a dedicated R section. Since Leica has taken a hiatus (hopefully a very short one), it falls to the owners/users of the R system to keep those that have invested their time & blood as well as the newcomers about the gear, it's use, care & history. The Forum can't just be about advertising/promoting new Leica products. It has to serve the members in a way that works for everyone. As I've said before, although I have an M2, M3 & CL (with more than a few M lenses), the bulk of all photographers use some form of SLR. Thats a fact! The future looks to be the same, even if we remove the mirror. Most of the professionals that make a living with images use an SLR. I think it's in Andreas' interest to bank on the knowledgebase of the talented R system people on this Forum. The South may not rise again, but some form of Leica SLR will be resurrected. I'm sure of that. Besides that, the R system is still widely used & much desired. Just go to Ebay. Prices for R bodies & lenses are very strong. It really isn't much to put up another forum category. And I'm sure we can get a dedicated moderator from all the talented R users that are currently very active on the Forum without burdening the current lot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted December 15, 2009 Share #39 Posted December 15, 2009 Though I'm not always around, as an R user the R Forum would be a place I would visit, and could help moderate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicamann Posted December 16, 2009 Share #40 Posted December 16, 2009 Stuart that is very generous of you, thank you!! Andy already has his plate full...so lets see what he has to say about this and of course Andreas. Cheers, JRM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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