Digital Printing - What do I need?

[ericperlberg]

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Are there any special issues with printing B&W in these regards. Do the ICC profiles for papers/printers work the same for B&W as color? I'm getting set to purchase an Epson 3880 (when they become available) for making prints of some of my B&W work. Although I enjoy making wet prints and love the silver, I'd like an alternative solution as well. Thanks, Ben

 

I'm not sure how to answer this question. You have to understand that ICC profiles deal with bringing colours into line on a device so that given input x, the output is also x and not x-4 or x+2. I have heard of someone in France creating b/w profile targets with only shades of grey but how successful that is I'm not sure. I'm sure somewhere on some forum someone is raving about it and somewhere else someone is calling it rubbish. The essence of ICC profiling is colour accuracy. That being said, getting an icc profile shouldn't have a negative (excuse the pun) affect on b/w printing.

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[roguewave]

I'm not sure how to answer this question. You have to understand that ICC profiles deal with bringing colours into line on a device so that given input x, the output is also x and not x-4 or x+2. I have heard of someone in France creating b/w profile targets with only shades of grey but how successful that is I'm not sure. I'm sure somewhere on some forum someone is raving about it and somewhere else someone is calling it rubbish. The essence of ICC profiling is colour accuracy. That being said, getting an icc profile shouldn't have a negative (excuse the pun) affect on b/w printing.

 

Eric, I'm grateful for the reply. I have been suffering this week with a bad cold, but fortunately not the flu. It has provided the time away from work to educate myself about the ICC scheme. I'm still not entirely "clear" in head, some residual effects of cough medicine. I'm slow right now is the best way to put it. My question goes to the heart of a phenomenon which might just be a chimera. I do calibrate my monitor, a 2 year old Samusung LS30HUBCBXAA. I had an Eizo for years, before. Personally, the Samsung has been a godsend, particularly with B&W work. The 30 inches allows me to place different iterations of the same work side by side and I can see the global effects of localized & frame wide changes in real time. My wife has a brand new 27 iMac, which Apple presented her, after her 24 iMac suffered a catastrophic demise. I set the 2 side by side and there's not a lot of difference. When I print, things need only minor adjustments, but all in all things are pretty much as expected from the screen image. Since I scan my B&W films, I keep all the originals & each major process step along the way. It helps me to codify & catalogue the workflow for future use. Since I know the screen does change & needs to be re-calibrated, I often go back & look at the original/final scans of a month earlier. There are subtle changes in the midtones and in some areas where I do my detailing & advance PS divinations. I guess I'm tacking back & forth, trying to get to the finish line as to the best way to master the B&W's as I don't believe the ink sets in the Epson use any color at all in the Advanced B&W modes. I apologize for not sailing in a straight line. Hopefully another day or 2. Thanks again & I find your posts singularly enlightening. BTW, loved your website/blog. Have you thought of a gps-driven database to index & project your expeditions on a google map where someone can compare your art with the banal imagery google serves? I think that would make an extraordinary exhibit. Again, thanks. Ben

[ericperlberg]

Ben, thanks for your feedback re my work. These days I'm trying to build a reputation in the contemporary art scene (I don't know of anyone at the L-camera forum who really works in that space) and have decided to de-emphasise the "location" aspects of my work. In fact, I'm going to end posting to curiouslyincongruous at the end of this month and transition my diary work to something less specifically location oriented. Along the lines you mention, I recently downloaded a neat app for my iPhone called GPS motion x which basically tracks where you walk and plots it on to a google map which you can then save with a specific link and embed it into one's web site. It's not perfect in that if the 3G signal gets weak, motion x can't track you but in general it would have been ultra cool had I been using it these many years. Unfortunately my photographic goals and the appearance of the app are out of sync.

 

Your comments about your general satisfaction with your Samsung monitor (I'm not familiar with it) are important vis a vis colour management. Colour management isn't perfect, you should see how the "experts" go at each other in Apple's colorsync users list where the engineers, theoreticians and colour experts who develop the colour management tools we use hang out and hammer out problems and theories. There's lots of arguments, disagreements and even petty name calling even at that level. Human nature I guess.

 

It sounds like you're not wasting much time or becoming overly frustrated with your prints not matching what you expected based on what your monitor showed and if it isn't broken, don't fix it. The differences as you point out can be subtle, as I've mentioned the primary differences between the best monitors and decent monitors are in the ability to produce accurate smooth gradients and to reproduce accurately highly saturated colours. Other issues like response time probably effect video workers more than photographers.

 

On the other hand, for some people things are dramatically wrong and then a good dose of colour management understanding can dramatically improve their printing experience.

 

You may have noticed in another thread that I went to the Apple Store in London and checked the colour gamut of the new 27" iMacs. I'm a big fan of Apple products by and large and for what it is, the 27" iMac is a great product. But when I compared the profile of the iMac to the sRGB gamut using the colorsync tool in the utilities folder the iMac's profile was only very slightly larger than sRGB which is good for the price but not close when compared with for example the high end NEC, LaCie and Eizo monitors which run around 98%-110% of the Adobe RGB gamut and cost 2-3x the price of an iMac just for the monitor. How important owning such a high end monitor is questionable depending on your profession. For people working in product and fashion photography colour accuracy is critical and they have to take the time and spend the money to get things right in every step of the chain. I know top art world photographers who when they're working on advertising jobs earn in the neighbourhood of £25-40,000 a day (yes!) on a multi-day shoot. At those rates, nothing less than the best is acceptable all the way down the post production chain and everyone is a specialist working with only the most sophisticated tools.

 

I've not done much b/w work but I know that the Yahoo group called Digital Black and White The Print used to be a key meeting place for people working seriously in B/W printing dealing with various monochrome ink sets, which printers had the best b/w output and all the other myriad issues one deals with in perfecting a technique. Perhaps you know it already but if not it might be something to take a look at. A high signal to noise ratio.

 

All the best.

Eric

[marcg]

Sorry, no. What ICC profiles and colour management in general do is help you maximise the performance of your ... etc.

 

...

Eric

 

Thanks so much for this brilliant explanation.

[haroldp]

Your comments about your general satisfaction with your Samsung monitor (I'm not familiar with it) are important vis a vis colour management. Colour management isn't perfect, you should see how the "experts" go at each other in Apple's colorsync users list where the engineers, theoreticians and colour experts who develop the colour management tools we use hang out and hammer out problems and theories. There's lots of arguments, disagreements and even petty name calling even at that level. Human nature I guess.

 

 

 

You may have noticed in another thread that I went to the Apple Store in London and checked the colour gamut of the new 27" iMacs. I'm a big fan of Apple products by and large and for what it is, the 27" iMac is a great product. But when I compared the profile of the iMac to the sRGB gamut using the colorsync tool in the utilities folder the iMac's profile was only very slightly larger than sRGB which is good for the price but not close when compared with for example the high end NEC, LaCie and Eizo monitors which run around 98%-110% of the Adobe RGB gamut and cost 2-3x the price of an iMac just for the monitor. How important owning such a high end monitor is questionable depending on your profession. For people working in product and fashion photography colour accuracy is critical and they have to take the time and spend the money to get things right in every step of the chain. I know top art world photographers who when they're working on advertising jobs earn in the neighbourhood of £25-40,000 a day (yes!) on a multi-day shoot. At those rates, nothing less than the best is acceptable all the way down the post production chain and everyone is a specialist working with only the most sophisticated tools.

 

 

I am using A Samsung XL20 which is a real graphic arts monitor fully covering the Adobe RGB gamut. Of course it is calibrated regularly. The improvement in the accuracy of my editing from previously using a (calibrated) conventional monitor is dramatic.

 

The downside is that it is only 20 in. diagonal on a 4/3 form factor.

 

They are approachable in cost ( < $1000. with rebates ).

 

If color and print accuracy matter, this is ( or any other graphic arts monitor ) is a great investment.

 

Regards ... Harold

[wilfredo]

Can I get away with using a Epson R1900 or R2880 expecting really nice quality? I don't want to wrestle with inferior equipment if I can afford to... I'd like the only bottleneck to getting good results to be my skills.

 

By the way, Thanks Harold.

 

 

I would keep away from the Epson 2880. I've had a crappy experience with it: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/109181-best-printer-super-b.html

[harrisfoto]

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Go to: InkjetMall - Archival inks - Color Management - Quad Black PiezographyBW and check out the info there.

 

Jon Cone continues produces digital prints for many of the most outstanding contemporary artists and photographers in the world.

 

The InkjetMall group in Vermont knows more about digital printing then I ever will.

[jsrockit]

I would keep away from the Epson 2880. I've had a crappy experience with it: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/109181-best-printer-super-b.html

 

I've noticed the paper you are using appears to be very thick. How does it work with thinner papers?

[jsrockit]

I think I may go with the HP B8850. Seems to be B9180 without the extras that I don't need. Any issues with this printer. After wilfredo's post, I looked around for R2880 issues and did not like what I saw.

[jhs1963]

I will get a custom one done later for sure, but will start with a generic one...

 

I've just typed in the search box.... which printer and BOOM just been blown away with the responses. Glad you asked these questions as it saves time for newbies like myself asking stuff over again.

There is a lot to learn. Not just the case of buy a printer and plug it in. Glad the forums here.

[LuxBob]

I use the iMac, Aperture, Hp B9180 and for my own work I mainly print B&W. I love this but I find it far from predictable.

When you produce a print it is far more emotive and there is a tactile aspect to it which just does not exist on screen. From the people I know, most people have problems with their printers form time to time. while this can be frustrating it is, for me, part of the challenge.

Imac's are okay, Aperture is as good as it gets, more or less but it needs an upgrade and the HP B9180 is also as good as it gets; I would neither recommend it nor would I discourage purchase (or the 8850). I am thinking of adding an Epson 3880 but have not found the appropriate excuse yet but I know that that will also provide challenges but also great prints when it is mastered.

ICC profiles are important, calibration of screen and printer is important and paper is important. Today I find that there are so many wonderful papers I could easily buy far more than I could ever print. Just get out there and get started.

[piblondin]

Someone mentioned the HP 8250, which sounds like about what I'm looking for. . What is the current equivalent of a small 02 compatible HP photo printer? Thanks!