meino Posted December 6, 2009 Share #1 Posted December 6, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have a question that I hope some more experienced people can help to answer. Since a week I'm the happy owner of a M9. Until now I used a partial digital workflow, using a scanner and PictureWindow Pro as Photo editor. So I have downloaded Adobe Lightroom (3Beta) and started the adaptation process. The technical qualities are superb, however I still have some issues. First the organisation of collections with keywords is good, but until now I have not found how that is done. So the relationship between the physical catalogues and the physical images is hidden, which means that it can be dangerous to reorganize the disks. It could be that it is simply my lack of understanding and experience. However the second issue is moire. I knew that it was present in the M9, but I have not been able to find a plugin or way to handle this in Lightroom. It can be done in an external editor like PW 5pro, but that is a tedious process. So I downloaded a trial version of CaptureOne 5 (pro). In CaptureOne I could reasonable easy control moire (and other issues caused by the lack of the AA filter). So now I have the question, can some of the more experienced users of these products shed some light on the strengths and weaknesses of both. An other question is that the trial download of CaptureOne is for both versions, the regular and the Pro version. Looking on the website of Phaseone there is a matrix with shows the features of both versions. Most of the features of the PRO version I don't mind, however it is for me not clear if there are differences in the library tools that are used for the manipulation of the image (like the moire tool, all the color tools etc). regards Meino de Graaf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Hi meino, Take a look here M9 Lightroom or CaptureOne. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
novice9 Posted December 7, 2009 Share #2 Posted December 7, 2009 im not an expert and cant answer the question you posed, but i can say that in my amateurish, limited experience, i find the files delivered by capture one to range from comparable to far superior to those of LR in terms of color rendering and detail. So I use Capture 1 for conversions and most pp, but when i need to do things like spot removal i export tiff to lr (since Capture 1 doesnt seem to support spot removal and a couple other features). Not sure how many others would agree with this assessment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammam Posted December 7, 2009 Share #3 Posted December 7, 2009 I have a question that I hope some more experienced people can help to answer.Since a week I'm the happy owner of a M9. Until now I used a partial digital workflow, using a scanner and PictureWindow Pro as Photo editor. So I have downloaded Adobe Lightroom (3Beta) and started the adaptation process. The technical qualities are superb, however I still have some issues. First the organisation of collections with keywords is good, but until now I have not found how that is done. So the relationship between the physical catalogues and the physical images is hidden, which means that it can be dangerous to reorganize the disks. It could be that it is simply my lack of understanding and experience. However the second issue is moire. I knew that it was present in the M9, but I have not been able to find a plugin or way to handle this in Lightroom. It can be done in an external editor like PW 5pro, but that is a tedious process. So I downloaded a trial version of CaptureOne 5 (pro). In CaptureOne I could reasonable easy control moire (and other issues caused by the lack of the AA filter). So now I have the question, can some of the more experienced users of these products shed some light on the strengths and weaknesses of both. An other question is that the trial download of CaptureOne is for both versions, the regular and the Pro version. Looking on the website of Phaseone there is a matrix with shows the features of both versions. Most of the features of the PRO version I don't mind, however it is for me not clear if there are differences in the library tools that are used for the manipulation of the image (like the moire tool, all the color tools etc). regards Meino de Graaf First of all, I don't think LR will do anything to your disks, unless you deliberately Delete a photo from a disk, which has to be a specific action involving a command in the Photo menu. LR just references files that are present on your disks when you import them, and organizes these references the way YOU want it. It does not shuffle files and folders around on its own without you knowing. Now, I don't know about LR3, but I know a bit about LR2.5, without being an expert. For things like Keywording, they can't be very different. Let's say you have imported 100 photos from a folder, and you want to differentiate them using keywords. Say, Street, Family and Nature. Make sure you're in Library mode. Select one or several photos (by Cd-clicking or range-clicking) you want to assign a keyword to. On the right panel, you will find the section Keywording. In Keyword Tags, enter the keyword you want (say Family) and return. Bingo, your photo are keyworded, as witnessed by the little flag in the lower righ corner. Now, the Keyword «Family» now shows in the window below called, appropriately enough, Keywords Suggestions. From then on, you will be able to assign this keyword to future photos by selecting them and clicking on the suggested keyword of your choice. Now, the beauty of it all. All the way up your LR general window, there is a little arrow. Click on it to make sure you see some commands like Text, Attribute, Metadata... and to the right DEFAULT COLUMNS. That's the important one. Click on it, and it will show a number of columns at the top, which are actually a collection of filters. By clicking on each header, you can choose what filter you want to use in each column. Things like Date, Camera, Lens... and, you guessed it, Keywords. And, in that Keyword column you will see your keywords, plus All and None. Just select your Keyword (filter), and LR will show you only those photos corresponding to that Keyword. Some may have no Keyword at all. Use None. Or you want to see all the photos. Use All. Or use two keywords. The same principle applies in all columns. One of my favorite is the Lens filter. It's magic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
borowiec Posted December 7, 2009 Share #4 Posted December 7, 2009 Meino, What is PW 5pro? I have moiré quite frequently and haven't found a good way to get rid of it. I use Raw Developer, which I have found to yield sharper and more detailed results than either Capture One or Lightroom, but it doesn't have any solution for moiré so, if there's a program that will fix moiré, even if it's tedious, I'd like to try it. Andrew Andrew Borowiec Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammam Posted December 7, 2009 Share #5 Posted December 7, 2009 I forgot: in order to have the filter columns show at the top of the Library module, you MUST be in grid mode, not single photo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clam2033 Posted December 7, 2009 Share #6 Posted December 7, 2009 In Capture 5 Pro, there is a moire removal function. Very simple sliding scale to use. I have tried with a few examples of moire removal and it seems to work quite well for both colour and pattern moires. This feature plus the removal of purple fringes seem to be the only 2 useful additional functions that make 5 pro superior to capture 5. quote=borowiec;1146634]Meino, What is PW 5pro? I have moiré quite frequently and haven't found a good way to get rid of it. I use Raw Developer, which I have found to yield sharper and more detailed results than either Capture One or Lightroom, but it doesn't have any solution for moiré so, if there's a program that will fix moiré, even if it's tedious, I'd like to try it. Andrew Andrew Borowiec Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
borowiec Posted December 7, 2009 Share #7 Posted December 7, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm aware of the moiré removal function in Capture One Pro, but the original poster wrote "It can be done in an external editor like PW 5pro." Does anyone know which program he is referring to? Thanks, Andrew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted December 7, 2009 Share #8 Posted December 7, 2009 The original post has the answer: Picture Window Pro. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clam2033 Posted December 7, 2009 Share #9 Posted December 7, 2009 Capture One seems to have less purple fringing than Lightroom even before applying fringe removal. If purple fringing (Capturre 5 Pro only), is applied the removal is stronger than with defringing activated on Lightroom. That is to say Capture 5 removes all purple fringing but Lightroom leaves a slight fringe behind. I dont know whether this stronger defringing action of Capture one is good or bad. It helps when there are edges shot against bright light (ie slightly over exposed part of picture) with very wide angle lenses are large aperture, eg, the 21mm Summilux at the edge. I have a question that I hope some more experienced people can help to answer.Since a week I'm the happy owner of a M9. Until now I used a partial digital workflow, using a scanner and PictureWindow Pro as Photo editor. So I have downloaded Adobe Lightroom (3Beta) and started the adaptation process. The technical qualities are superb, however I still have some issues. First the organisation of collections with keywords is good, but until now I have not found how that is done. So the relationship between the physical catalogues and the physical images is hidden, which means that it can be dangerous to reorganize the disks. It could be that it is simply my lack of understanding and experience. However the second issue is moire. I knew that it was present in the M9, but I have not been able to find a plugin or way to handle this in Lightroom. It can be done in an external editor like PW 5pro, but that is a tedious process. So I downloaded a trial version of CaptureOne 5 (pro). In CaptureOne I could reasonable easy control moire (and other issues caused by the lack of the AA filter). So now I have the question, can some of the more experienced users of these products shed some light on the strengths and weaknesses of both. An other question is that the trial download of CaptureOne is for both versions, the regular and the Pro version. Looking on the website of Phaseone there is a matrix with shows the features of both versions. Most of the features of the PRO version I don't mind, however it is for me not clear if there are differences in the library tools that are used for the manipulation of the image (like the moire tool, all the color tools etc). regards Meino de Graaf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
borowiec Posted December 7, 2009 Share #10 Posted December 7, 2009 Too bad, it seems that Picture Window Pro is only for Windows, not Mac. Does anyone know of any other stand alone solutions for moiré besides Capture One Pro? Andrew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyt Posted December 7, 2009 Share #11 Posted December 7, 2009 good grief, someone else using picture window pro! I thought I was the only one left!! I use lightroom for most things, but when I need more image editing than it can cope with I export it to PWP. I use a mac but run PWP on parallels, a much cheaper combo than buying photoshop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
d2mini Posted December 7, 2009 Share #12 Posted December 7, 2009 Is there an easy solution in Photoshop? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyt Posted December 7, 2009 Share #13 Posted December 7, 2009 Is there an easy solution in Photoshop? not normally.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmo Posted December 10, 2009 Share #14 Posted December 10, 2009 how about an answer to the original question: M9 Lightroom or CaptureOne and possibly Aperture Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 10, 2009 Share #15 Posted December 10, 2009 The tone of this thread suggests that Capture one and Lightroom are opposite poles. In fact the two programs complement one another well. There is nothing stopping you doing the RAW developing with the attendant tweaks in Capture One (Pro) (btw there are more advantages to the Pro version, like being able to work per colour channel) and make use of the superiority of that program in RAW developing, exporting to Lightroom (Or CS4 or PSE) in a 16-bits TIFF and doing all the things C1-5 isn't designed for. The only thing you are doing then is skipping ACR, which is a good, but not brilliant RAW developer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 10, 2009 Share #16 Posted December 10, 2009 Is there an easy solution in Photoshop? If the fringing is in an area that is low in magenta in general (and it usually is), you can lasso it roughly, and desaturate and adjust brightness in >adjustments>hue/saturation>magenta until the fringing is gone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgm Posted December 10, 2009 Share #17 Posted December 10, 2009 1. I was also looking for a moire removal tool and got aware of fredmiranda, they offer a Photoshop plugin moire reducer. I have not tested it since I am still waiting for my M9. Can anybody else report on experience? 2. I am surprised to hear that capture one gives better sharpness than ACR. Dpreview gives a comparison of Capture one and ACR in their M8 review, and at least there ACR is clearly superior. all the best Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 10, 2009 Share #18 Posted December 10, 2009 There are other tests out there.(LFI for instance) DPReview is wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george_b Posted December 10, 2009 Share #19 Posted December 10, 2009 1. I was also looking for a moire removal tool and got aware of fredmiranda, they offer a Photoshop plugin moire reducer. I have not tested it since I am still waiting for my M9. Can anybody else report on experience? Has it been tested for CS4 yet? Last time I looked for an update for their B&W converstion plug-in that had not yet been tested for CS4 so wonder if the moire removal had either. It seems to be taking a long time to check them out . . . . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcoombs Posted December 10, 2009 Share #20 Posted December 10, 2009 The tone of this thread suggests that Capture one and Lightroom are opposite poles. In fact the two programs complement one another well. There is nothing stopping you doing the RAW developing with the attendant tweaks in Capture One (Pro) (btw there are more advantages to the Pro version, like being able to work per colour channel) and make use of the superiority of that program in RAW developing, exporting to Lightroom (Or CS4 or PSE) in a 16-bits TIFF and doing all the things C1-5 isn't designed for. The only thing you are doing then is skipping ACR, which is a good, but not brilliant RAW developer. Hi, Jaap. Is there a difference between Capture One and Capture One Pro as far as the RAW processing of M8/M9 DNGs? I would have thought they were the same engine and the difference between the two programs only being additional post processing features available in the Pro version. Reason I'm asking is I'm looking at buying C1 for RAW processing and then Lightroom for post processing, and wonder if I really need the Pro version. Appreciate your thoughts, Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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