jaapv Posted November 26, 2009 Share #61 Posted November 26, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The dealers I shop with like Ffordes, Meister and Kamera-express have never ever asked for a deposit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Hi jaapv, Take a look here Bitched like Hell.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
bill Posted November 26, 2009 Share #62 Posted November 26, 2009 ...leica has control of their dealers. ... That's an "interesting" statement, with not much by way of hard fact to back it up. What "control" do you imagine they have? Can you define it? Do you know for a fact what leverage Leica can exert over their dealer network? As to the rest of the content of this thread, whatever happened to "caveat emptor"? Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_dernie Posted November 26, 2009 Share #63 Posted November 26, 2009 I have an M9 Grey paid for at B&H but noi camera. As of last week. So I just called them and politely asked for an estimated deleivery date. Guy put me on hold for a while and came back with...nothing. So I told him off: I am a longtime customer. You don't take 7k and tell a customer you can't even provide an ESTIMATE of delivery. Am I supposed to gove you 7k for something I don't see for two or three months. You'd better talk to your manager. THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!!!Anyway, maybe I shook the ice a bit. Hope so. B&H is usually great to deal with, but this crap about taking a 7k payment and offering nothing, not even a hoped for date, is INSANE!! I sympathise. My opinion is that it is outrageous for any trader to take a penny before the item is in stock. AFAIK here in the UK this does not happen, though I have had one experience of a foreign (to the UK) dealer taking my money then emailing me to say they were out of stock. I cancelled immediately and got my money back. I suppose in the case of such an expensive camera, where it seems potential customers are placing multiple orders with the intention of cancelling all bar one, taking a non returnable deposit as self protection would be reasonable for a small dealer. B&H probably is not in this category... Frank Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
1509Abct Posted November 26, 2009 Share #64 Posted November 26, 2009 I think it's important to realize, stores like B&H and Adorama are family run business and no ones going to get fired! If "we" stop buying from them, I'm pretty sure in a very short time they would have a change of attitude towards all customers. But, that's not going to happen and they know that to. If, the overseas market would cut better deals with Leica and eliminate the gray market, USA stores / dealers would all of a sudden get better attitudes or loose business to their overseas competitors. Well, it's only a pipe dream and we will continue to put up with their nasty attitudes as long as business continues as usual. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 26, 2009 Share #65 Posted November 26, 2009 So, the attitude of some US stores, is actually the RotW's fault? Can't quite see that myself. Aren't American businesses supposed to be the best in the world when it comes to customer service? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted November 26, 2009 Share #66 Posted November 26, 2009 i posted this in another thread...this isnt directed at B&H just the whole pre-pay thing. i am understanding of leicas predicament in terms of production. handmade takes time. we order we wait. in a way leica is endorsing a back-up system, nikon, canon... and thats ok too. what im most disturbed about is that leica is allowing their big distributors to force their clients into pre-pay and/or large deposits. i realize that im in the us and policies may differ here than in the rest of the world. here money in the bank can collect interest, not to mention be used to pay bills or whatever. i feel its unethical ( or just simply wrong) for places like B&H to take 7k lock it up and collect interest for 3-6 months. 7k @ 5% a yr = $350. leica has control of their dealers. is it possible that they are un-aware that the us dealers are requiring this? ive been told that the US dealers legally cant make you pay in advance but i believe its a grey area. im not a lawyer... what i dont understand is why am i the one saying this? why arent i reading this posted by someone else. many photogs here have been in the industry for decades and are independent. theyre entire world is about cash flow. im not saying this to start a bitch fest, but to simply point out that like leica we are small and we cant afford to tie up our money. btw i too am a long time customer of B&H and have had ok experiences with them. so please forum members dont think this is some thinly veiled complaint from a passed experience. i will post this in the thread where the guy went off at B&H so mods, please excuse. best, melissa I see your point, but of course it's the consumer's responsibility too. They let that happen to them. If you don't want to pay a deposit, then just wait, until that initial demand surge is over in 6-9 months. Think of the lost interest on your deposit as what it's costing you to get the camera earlier then folks like me. This isn't a limited production item, where you'll have to be on someone's waiting list to get one. In a year this will all be a memory. In the meantime, use what you were using before 9/9/09. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 26, 2009 Share #67 Posted November 26, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) i posted this in another thread...this isnt directed at B&H just the whole pre-pay thing. i am understanding of leicas predicament in terms of production. handmade takes time. we order we wait. in a way leica is endorsing a back-up system, nikon, canon... and thats ok too. what im most disturbed about is that leica is allowing their big distributors to force their clients into pre-pay and/or large deposits. i realize that im in the us and policies may differ here than in the rest of the world. here money in the bank can collect interest, not to mention be used to pay bills or whatever. i feel its unethical ( or just simply wrong) for places like B&H to take 7k lock it up and collect interest for 3-6 months. 7k @ 5% a yr = $350. leica has control of their dealers. is it possible that they are un-aware that the us dealers are requiring this? ive been told that the US dealers legally cant make you pay in advance but i believe its a grey area. im not a lawyer... what i dont understand is why am i the one saying this? why arent i reading this posted by someone else. many photogs here have been in the industry for decades and are independent. theyre entire world is about cash flow. im not saying this to start a bitch fest, but to simply point out that like leica we are small and we cant afford to tie up our money. btw i too am a long time customer of B&H and have had ok experiences with them. so please forum members dont think this is some thinly veiled complaint from a passed experience. i will post this in the thread where the guy went off at B&H so mods, please excuse. best, melissa What sort of control is Leica supposed to have over dealers? It is rather the other way around. Leica would certainly not be helped if B&H decided not to stock Leica any more. No - camera stores are their own masters, and if they decide on a deposit policy it is up to the customers to make up their minds. If you don't want to pay a deposit -that's me-, let alone the full price, you can refuse and go somewhere else. Nobody is forcing anybody to hand over their money at gunpoint. Is is a bit strange to agree at first and then go off to a forum and complain. You want a deposit - no deal. As simple as that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted November 26, 2009 Share #68 Posted November 26, 2009 I think it may come down to some not unreasonable suppositions made by the OP. B&H, who were not taking M9 orders, suddenly started to do so on a 100% prepaid basis. The OP may well have assumed that B&H must have known that they were going to get some M9's in. After paying, some doubts may have crept in and he thought "I'll just phone up and check how long my fully prepaid M9 is going to be." When he got an answer which sounded a bit like "haven't a clue and don't care very much", he was understandably somewhat irate. In my limited dealings with NY photodealers, I found them to be rude, abrupt, unpleasant and unhelpful. A totally mis-described lens was sent to me (a "current and coded" model 50 Elmar-M but which had a serial number in the 1100000 range and the coding was with a Sharpie!). I had great difficulty in getting them to take it back and refund the postage. As to getting my return postage back - forget it. My experiences with dealers in the rest of the USA have been first class. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammam Posted November 26, 2009 Share #69 Posted November 26, 2009 What I don't really appreciate in B&H «pay now and wait» policy is that it smells of blackmail: if you want to be on an M9 waiting list, sir, you will have to pay for it in full, otherwise you will not be put on the list. They actually make you pay a premium to guarantee you your place there, and that is the interests on that money. Of course, they give you warning, and you don't have to do business with them, but I think it tarnishes B&H's image. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwr50 Posted November 26, 2009 Share #70 Posted November 26, 2009 What I don't really appreciate in B&H «pay now and wait» policy is that it smells of blackmail: if you want to be on an M9 waiting list, sir, you will have to pay for it in full, otherwise you will not be put on the list. They actually make you pay a premium to guarantee you your place there, and that is the interests on that money. Of course, they give you warning, and you don't have to do business with them, but I think it tarnishes B&H's image. I don't agree that it tarnished B&H image. How is it "blackmail?" Advance payments for products or services with an indefinite delivery date are not that uncommon. B&H has been fully candid with their customers about the indefinite delivery date and has left it up to the customer's choice whether they want to make the payment now or wait until delivery dates are more certain. B&H has long had a good reputation for customer service, and there no doubt are many who are willing to accept these terms of sale. (I won't give the number here, but I suspect you might be surprised at how many were willing to make the advance payment to B&H in order to move to the top of their list.) When supplies are scarce it's simply a marketing technique that separates those who are willing to make advance payments in order to get an earlier delivery from those who prefer to wait. I, for one, am glad that they offerred this option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted November 26, 2009 Share #71 Posted November 26, 2009 I think it may come down to some not unreasonable suppositions made by the OP. B&H, who were not taking M9 orders, suddenly started to do so on a 100% prepaid basis. The OP may well have assumed that B&H must have known that they were going to get some M9's in. After paying, some doubts may have crept in and he thought "I'll just phone up and check how long my fully prepaid M9 is going to be." When he got an answer which sounded a bit like "haven't a clue and don't care very much", he was understandably somewhat irate. In my limited dealings with NY photodealers, I found them to be rude, abrupt, unpleasant and unhelpful. A totally mis-described lens was sent to me (a "current and coded" model 50 Elmar-M but which had a serial number in the 1100000 range and the coding was with a Sharpie!). I had great difficulty in getting them to take it back and refund the postage. As to getting my return postage back - forget it. My experiences with dealers in the rest of the USA have been first class. Wilson I don't think it fair to lump all NY dealers in a bad category. Try Photo Village just as an example. Very nice and very honest. There are others. And B&H and Adorama are generally very reliable as well. There was a post some time ago about a terribly rude London dealer and I am sure not everyone believes in good customer service. But it is just wrong to generalize. Just as it is wrong to say all New Yorkers (or all Parisiens) are rude because you happened to run into a miscreant. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted November 26, 2009 Share #72 Posted November 26, 2009 I don't think it fair to lump all NY dealers in a bad category. Try Photo Village just as an example. Very nice and very honest. There are others. And B&H and Adorama are generally very reliable as well. There was a post some time ago about a terribly rude London dealer and I am sure not everyone believes in good customer service. But it is just wrong to generalize. Just as it is wrong to say all New Yorkers (or all Parisiens) are rude because you happened to run into a miscreant. . I did say "limited dealings" I had two dealings and two bad experiences. I accept there will be good dealers in NYC. My father was looking for a new Leica in Brooklyn in 1953 after his cameras were stolen from his luggage on a Cunard voyage and he got an immediate pay out. He was looking in the window when the shop owner came rushing out and uttered the immortal words "if you vants to buy ze camera, you comes into ze shop: if you not vants to buy ze camera, you gets ze snotty nose off ze vindow." My father was so taken aback by this unique sales approach, that he allowed himself to be led into the shop and was sold a IIF and 50mm Summitar, which I still have. He returned to the shop a number of times over the following years, announcing himself as "hello it's Mr. Snotty nose on ze vindow". Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James R Posted November 26, 2009 Share #73 Posted November 26, 2009 I don't work for B&H and don't care from who a person buys. The "bitching" here is appropriate given the thread's title. I say to all who are unhappy with B&H's policy, get the complaining out of your system. It might be cathartic. I will join you if my M9 from B&H isn't delivered by Christmas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted November 26, 2009 Share #74 Posted November 26, 2009 If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted November 26, 2009 Share #75 Posted November 26, 2009 Again, it's a stated policy, and a strange one. But let's get beyond "what's wrong with the dealer" and "why did the buyer pre-pay." I repeat, does anyone know why B&H has this policy? I'm more interested in the pay-now-we'll-ship-ASAP policy. Does anyone know whether it stems from a particular Orthodox interpretation of the Torah? Or maybe it derives from an attempt to protect your credit card? That is, if hackers break into the B&H system, maybe the credit card numbers of already-processed orders are less accessible?. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan States Posted November 26, 2009 Share #76 Posted November 26, 2009 So, the attitude of some US stores, is actually the RotW's fault? Can't quite see that myself. Aren't American businesses supposed to be the best in the world when it comes to customer service? Absolutely not. In general they stink. Best I've found is in Japan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted November 27, 2009 Share #77 Posted November 27, 2009 Again, it's a stated policy, and a strange one. But let's get beyond "what's wrong with the dealer" and "why did the buyer pre-pay." I repeat, does anyone know why B&H has this policy? I suspect that given the incredible turnover of B&H it protects them from list sitters & order junkies who renege on payment at delivery time plus also makes their system much much simpler to manage. It also doesn't harm them to sit on the money until delivery either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted November 27, 2009 Share #78 Posted November 27, 2009 LOL! Also a much simpler explanation than mine, Graham. Good business policy if you can get away with it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheewai_m6 Posted November 27, 2009 Share #79 Posted November 27, 2009 Just as it is wrong to say all New Yorkers (or all Parisiens) are rude because you happened to run into a miscreant. . interesting you chose parisians to use as an example.... i guess that's what the forum is for, discussions. but if you're not happy with the policy, then don't buy from them. it's as simple as that. they fully disclose their policy. if you want the m9 so much that you're going with this policy, then don't 'bitch' about it. the choice is your's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spersky Posted November 27, 2009 Share #80 Posted November 27, 2009 What I don't really appreciate in B&H «pay now and wait» policy is that it smells of blackmail: if you want to be on an M9 waiting list, sir, you will have to pay for it in full, otherwise you will not be put on the list. They actually make you pay a premium to guarantee you your place there, and that is the interests on that money. Of course, they give you warning, and you don't have to do business with them, but I think it tarnishes B&H's image.[/quote As you already stated, you do not even think that the M9 exists. So why spend money on it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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