sealsong Posted November 15, 2009 Share #81  Posted November 15, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Andreas - That's far too snotty a post to be signed 'with kind regards'. Sneaking the high ground whilst quoting Mark of all people as 'beef and blaa' does nothing to further a discussion where people [some with vast experience] have differing contributions to make. Mark has provided this forum with some unique analysis of [particularly] the M8 for which most of us here learned a great deal. He deserves greater politeness than you showed. If you doubt me; go and examine 'Anatomy of an M8', afterwards you can blush in private. ................ Chris  Andreas can say whatever the hell he likes, it's the INTERNET and if you're going to post your ideology on it then be prepared to receive criticism! Andreas is right, you people just bitch endlessly, mostly about sh*t you don't even own and THAT is what I find to be disrespectful not to mention hypocritical and childish! "He deserves greater politeness than you showed"....gimme a break will ya!  ~allaboutglass Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 15, 2009 Posted November 15, 2009 Hi sealsong, Take a look here My feelings about the M9. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
biglouis Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share #82 Â Posted November 15, 2009 What a shame that this thread which up to this point has been well argued has descended into this... perhaps a friendly moderator can close it up now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 15, 2009 Share #83 Â Posted November 15, 2009 Charlie? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted November 15, 2009 Share #84 Â Posted November 15, 2009 ... no I wasn't [aware of M9's change of metering pattern from M8]. I probably did not read the specs carefully enough.... Strangely, they don't mention it in the specs. It's in the last minute of Reichmann's Stephan Daniel M9 interview video. I guess Leica just sees it as a reasonable advance and not worth making a big deal of, but Daniel is very specific about it. Â Only thing I know is that we're not seeing a lot of threads along the line of "How should I meter with my M9," as we did with the M8. (Of course, maybe that'll come when more cameras are in circulation. ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 15, 2009 Share #85 Â Posted November 15, 2009 I just do not get the same feeling with the M9. My M8's came back from upgrade in Solms in fine form, fully sorted, and all the way through the summer provided great IQ. The M9 arrives and, yes, we have FF and, yes, we no longer need IR filters but we've lost some things, some others are new and badly thought out, the evident cost cutting still rankles and the camera's a bit of a slug. Then there's the IQ problems with the 18mm SE and the fact that one third of Leica's lens range is now outside the scope of the viewfinder. Overall, I needn't have bothered. Well, I'm not sure how many firmware updates there have been for the M8 . .. but I think you can be certain that the IQ issues with you're 18mm SE will be sorted. I'm trying to think which 1/3 of leica lens range are now outside the scope of the rangefinder? Â The M8 did 90 . . . which is 120 mm . .. the M9 does 135 The M8 did 24 . . . which is 32mm . . . .the M9 does 28 Â ? It may be the M9's arrival has more to do with throwing a financial lifeline to Leica than in moving their DRF game forwards. To me, the camera feels incomplete, a work in progress. Surely marketing any product which people want, and which is going to sell, is a financial lifeline to any company? But that's hardly grounds for criticism. Â I had two m8u cameras, and I agree they did a grand job, but it's so great to be able to put the 28 'cron on and get the kind of results for which one needed the 21 'lux on the M8. Â We haven't had the first firmware update for the M9 yet - at this stage in the M8 life cycle lots of people were tearing out their hair. (mind you, the 30% off lenses were good, I'd never have been able to get the WATE, which is so great on the M9, without it!). Â I would also like a sapphire cover, but I wouldn't swap the rejuvenated and useful info button for the top plate lcd. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 15, 2009 Share #86 Â Posted November 15, 2009 I couldn't agree more. Especially the last sentence. Mark my words, Photokina 2010 will reveal the M9's successor, either an upgraded M9.2 which offers back some or all of the features of the M8.2 that were withdrawn (top screen, sapphire rear screen, 2m framelines, UV/IR "ON" menu setting for times when IR front filters are still required) or perhaps an altogether new M10 with a much-improved sensor (contemporary-standard of high-ISO performance, complete lack of IR shifting a la last 2 generations of Canon). I must confess the improvements you mention would not be exciting enough for me to upgrade from the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markgay Posted November 15, 2009 Share #87  Posted November 15, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Everything you say, Louis, has been said before. However, you’re very welcome to say it again!  The M9 adds little for the amateur photographer. Sure. Though if s/he can afford it, that little might be worth having. (actually that’s a truism for every digital upgrade)  The M9 was not a revolutionary advance, but evolution. See the thread on RRF.  For excitement, go back to film. The M7 is a total buzz alongside the M8. Agree.  The one thing Louis says that does needs saying more, is that lenses are king.  I think there is a lesson there - a Rubicon, a Styx.. something that should make up our minds once for all.  1) Cheaper lenses suffer various kinds of distortion and distortion lowers image quality. That's especially true with P&S cameras, but also applies to lenses by some big players. Software helps, but generally corrects one problem by creating another.. ie, by smoothing artefacts, blending edges to get rid of aberrations, then drawing a line around eveyrthing to create artificial sharpness.  2) Technology and software will evolve but not enough to offset the fundamental issue: Sensors are near the limits, not of technology, but of physics. They cannot change the way light waves and colour spectrums respond. The Foveon sensors show this: an advance in technology that theoretically should have produced higher resolution. Despite measuring R, G and B separately, the sensors have noise issues. I think the law of unintended consequences is also intervening here.*  3) Another issue that few camera reviewers acknowledge: You can optimise a lens and software for good light or low light but not both. You must choose. When people rave about a camera's performance at high ISOs they often forget to look at the much more important performance at low ISO. After all, at which setting do you take 90% of photographs?  So it’s time to stop expecting wonders and mysteries from new cameras. Get out there and enjoy them!  And no more tearing your heart out about the M9 or comparing it to the M8. Or it'll be time to send in the shrinks.  Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulrikft Posted November 16, 2009 Share #88  Posted November 16, 2009 Everything you say, Louis, has been said before. However, you’re very welcome to say it again!  The M9 adds little for the amateur photographer. Sure. Though if s/he can afford it, that little might be worth having. (actually that’s a truism for every digital upgrade)  The M9 was not a revolutionary advance, but evolution. See the thread on RRF.  For excitement, go back to film. The M7 is a total buzz alongside the M8. Agree.  The one thing Louis says that does needs saying more, is that lenses are king.  I think there is a lesson there - a Rubicon, a Styx.. something that should make up our minds once for all.  1) Cheaper lenses suffer various kinds of distortion and distortion lowers image quality. That's especially true with P&S cameras, but also applies to lenses by some big players. Software helps, but generally corrects one problem by creating another.. ie, by smoothing artefacts, blending edges to get rid of aberrations, then drawing a line around eveyrthing to create artificial sharpness.  2) Technology and software will evolve but not enough to offset the fundamental issue: Sensors are near the limits, not of technology, but of physics. They cannot change the way light waves and colour spectrums respond. The Foveon sensors show this: an advance in technology that theoretically should have produced higher resolution. Despite measuring R, G and B separately, the sensors have noise issues. I think the law of unintended consequences is also intervening here.*  3) Another issue that few camera reviewers acknowledge: You can optimise a lens and software for good light or low light but not both. You must choose. When people rave about a camera's performance at high ISOs they often forget to look at the much more important performance at low ISO. After all, at which setting do you take 90% of photographs?  So it’s time to stop expecting wonders and mysteries from new cameras. Get out there and enjoy them!  And no more tearing your heart out about the M9 or comparing it to the M8. Or it'll be time to send in the shrinks.  Mark  Just wanted to chime in and say that even though I like your post and agree with most of it, I shoot 90% of my shots above iso800..  It is true that especially when it comes to color, having a thicker color filter does improve color qualities, and lessens high iso quality, so it is a trade-off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted November 16, 2009 Share #89  Posted November 16, 2009 Just my personal opinion or JMHO as the internet allows.....  The key criterion is what if the M9 had come first! Say that in November 2006 you had the M9 and all it is capable of achieving. Then Leica had come along to describe the M8 with reduced specs and a price $1K lower than the M9. How many units do you think they may have sold  The M9 was the camera we all wanted but sadly it took three years to get there. But now that we are there, and the price increment is absolutely a no brainer, what is there to argue about?  My work with the M9 so far is absolutely spectacular (the camera, not necessarily the photographer (full disclosure my friends)) I only wish I had this camera in hand for the past three years!  Digital cameras come and go but those that move forward from their initial positions to where we need them to be has been wonderful capabilities. God bless the Germans for their persistance...........love these rangefinders!  Keep them coming Solms.........God bless Dr Feininger  Woody Spedden Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted November 16, 2009 Share #90 Â Posted November 16, 2009 Sure sounds like our old friend Charlie, Jaapv. Â If it is you Charlie, our mutual friend Tony Esposito from Hendrick Porsche says 'hello!' Â Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sealsong Posted November 16, 2009 Share #91  Posted November 16, 2009 Sure sounds like our old friend Charlie, Jaapv. If it is you Charlie, our mutual friend Tony Esposito from Hendrick Porsche says 'hello!'  Chris  Hahaha....hey Chris, is my 'Call it as I see it' tone that obvious? Yes, it is me. I'm in Australia watching The Patriots beat up on the Colts (NFL). I have a show tonight but today is a particularly good day because I received a couple of early Xmas pressies from Sölms this morning. One of them I can talk about, the other not. The one that I can talk about is the X1. It's very nice indeed, I've read a few things here and there about it's dismal AF speed but I never pay too much attention to what people who write about cameras to that extent, say about them as opposed to people who just shoot them without agenda. My initial impression is that it's like a baby M9 chrome. The files so far look beautiful in fact, they look just like the M files only not as clean but extraordinary all the same. If I get time I'll post some.  ~Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sealsong Posted November 16, 2009 Share #92 Â Posted November 16, 2009 What a shame that this thread which up to this point has been well argued has descended into this... perhaps a friendly moderator can close it up now? Â Â and whilst we're on the subject... Big Louis... relax and stop being such a hypocrite. Â ~allaboutglass or charlie...whatever Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sealsong Posted November 16, 2009 Share #93  Posted November 16, 2009 Just my personal opinion or JMHO as the internet allows..... The key criterion is what if the M9 had come first! Say that in November 2006 you had the M9 and all it is capable of achieving. Then Leica had come along to describe the M8 with reduced specs and a price $1K lower than the M9. How many units do you think they may have sold  The M9 was the camera we all wanted but sadly it took three years to get there. But now that we are there, and the price increment is absolutely a no brainer, what is there to argue about?  My work with the M9 so far is absolutely spectacular (the camera, not necessarily the photographer (full disclosure my friends)) I only wish I had this camera in hand for the past three years!  Digital cameras come and go but those that move forward from their initial positions to where we need them to be has been wonderful capabilities. God bless the Germans for their persistance...........love these rangefinders!  Keep them coming Solms.........God bless Dr Feininger  Woody Spedden  Wow! I'm glad that you're enjoying it Woody. I appreciate that you're passionate about it and seeing it for what it really is. I LOVE mine.  ~allaboutglass Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccis Posted November 16, 2009 Share #94  Posted November 16, 2009 Hahaha....hey Chris, is my 'Call it as I see it' tone that obvious? Yes, it is me. I'm in Australia watching The Patriots beat up on the Colts (NFL).  ~Charlie  If the Colts come back, I'm going to call you to rub it in your face Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sealsong Posted November 16, 2009 Share #95  Posted November 16, 2009 If the Colts come back, I'm going to call you to rub it in your face  Riccis, Brother...we must talk. Some new toys ;-). I'll call you after the game.  ~allaboutglass Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeicaS2 Posted November 16, 2009 Share #96 Â Posted November 16, 2009 The M10 will have the ISO and I will get it, using the $$ I happily earn with the M9. Thanks for the FF, you will sell 30,000 of them, and then do it again with the M10. Why? Because of the lenses, which require no updates. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotomiguel Posted November 16, 2009 Share #97 Â Posted November 16, 2009 I remember when the M8 came three years ago. The forum was crazy. Many members asked and complained about the features and problems of the M8. Some of us adapted ourself to the camera trying to take the most of it and we've had a wonderfull time plenty of fun. Now the M9 is here with all the features that Rangefinder lovers have asked during this three years. The camera is not expensive at all if you think what you have in your hands: the best camera possible in so tiny size hitting closely the best Dlsr. And you can use the best lenses ever made. I'm just going to enjoy this camera trying to learn and to get the most of it. I'm still not happy with my results. My M9+50mm cron is going to be great but we have to get used each other. I'm going for a long trip with my M8. I'm going to abandon my M9 for a month. It's too new and "for me" too delicate to risk it and I will feel free using my M8 carefree. When I'll come back, I will try just to enjoy the M9 as it is. Of course everything could be better but if you think how great photographers worked many years ago and the pictures they got... No more excuses. We have an incredible tool and the rest depends of our ability. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted November 16, 2009 Share #98 Â Posted November 16, 2009 "I'm going for a long trip with my M8. I'm going to abandon my M9 for a month. It's too new and "for me" too delicate to risk it and I will feel free using my M8 carefree". Miguel, Take both with you it is what I am going to do with my trip in Asia I also bring my M7 (and my R8) in case.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted November 16, 2009 Share #99 Â Posted November 16, 2009 Charlie, Â How is the Noctilux 35 1.2 performing? Â Regards Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danyves Posted November 16, 2009 Share #100 Â Posted November 16, 2009 "I'm going for a long trip with my M8. I'm going to abandon my M9 for a month. It's too new and "for me" too delicate to risk it and I will feel free using my M8 carefree".Miguel, Take both with you it is what I am going to do with my trip in Asia I also bring my M7 (and my R8) in case.... Â Too much cameras for your trip in Asia Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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