sdai Posted November 10, 2009 Share #81 Posted November 10, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thank you Simon. Aside from small sensor zooms and ultra/super lenses Ricoh will launch good classic ones with FF or APS sensors hopefully. I would prefer a mere M mount though. It is quite possible that some crazy nerds will work out some hacks for the M at some point, LCT. Who knows? it should be easier now it's modularized. There could be some after market company making money out of it too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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barjohn Posted November 10, 2009 Share #82 Posted November 10, 2009 At first, I questioned the cartridge idea but the more I think about it the more intriguing it becomes. I think the real kicker for Ricoh would be to make the sensor lens module an open standard. Then you might get a Sigma 28mm with a Foveon sensor cartridge but Ricoh performance or an M mount cartridge with a FF sensor, etc. The possibilities are endless. Sensor technology is changing rapidly and one is not locked into a given sensor. If you think of the sensor/lens combination as just a lens with different capability (with IS, without IS, f1.4, f2.0, etc.) then it is no different than owning a 35 Summicron and a 35 Sumilux. Both offer the same field of view but one is better suited to low light and one is better suited to a smaller DOF. Better micro lensed sensors, curved sensors, etc. are coming and you are ready with a camera that can take advantage of this with the GRX. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted November 10, 2009 Share #83 Posted November 10, 2009 ..... because the APS-C sensor is actually pretty big (1.6x bigger than Micro Four Thirds), so - no matter how thin the body - there has to be some space between the back of the lens and the sensor (meaning the lens unit has to be quite long), and the result is a fairly hefty unit. We start nudging into small dslr and leica m territory and a smaller body makes the camera a ergonomic lump with larger lenses. I had a GRD and bought one of those adapters for a wide, that adapter protrusion made a heck of a difference to the cameras compactness ....... maybe ricoh will come out with that compact auto/manual portrait camera not leica, a 70 or 85mm will have a lot of niche camera buyers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted November 10, 2009 Share #84 Posted November 10, 2009 I agree... these are two totally seperate and distinct cameras IMHO. The Ricoh doesn't have the elegance of the Leica... no dedicated shutter speed and aperture dials, etc. It's just a bit strange. It has two control dials that accomplish this exact function. In terms of interface and ergonomics the Ricoh bodies blow everyone else out of the water. Take a close look at a GRD III. It was actually designed for photographers, not engineers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted November 11, 2009 Share #85 Posted November 11, 2009 It has two control dials that accomplish this exact function. Correct me if I am wrong, but they are not dedicated buttons and I would still have to look at the screen to see what shutter speed and aperture I chose right? I do like the GRD III ... I really do. I'd buy one of I didn't think larger sensor cameras are the way forward. I just don't care for this Ricoh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted November 11, 2009 Share #86 Posted November 11, 2009 ...i was hoping for something i could decipher, but i guess i'll jest have to be patient... Cam, try this Google translation. Parts of it are still impenetrable, but it does state the following that can be deciphered: In terms of future expansion as an example, "portrait photography unit with full-size sensor", "ultra-wide unit / Panfokasumakuro taken", "super-telephoto unit / high-sensitivity astronomical photography," "ultra high-speed continuous shooting sports Capture Unit "," waterproof and dustproof unit "and propose solutions. Photomicroscopy unit that supports educational, medical units, and units are also assumed that specializes in movie mode. In addition, GXR is considering the system as well as the unit can use the camera away. The Ricoh Meanwhile, scanners, storage, printers, are also planning to expand outside the camera and projector unit. GXR installation of three units designed for GXR has opened the side of the unit is larger than the body can be installed. —Mitch/Bangkok Walks in Bangkok (GRD3) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted November 11, 2009 Share #87 Posted November 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Of course it's early days for both cameras, but the Ricoh GXR photographs on dpreview look better than those of the Leica X1: not just when pixel-peeping at 100% views of brick walls but also in the entire "feel" of the pictures in the whole, including the rendering of out-of-focus areas. It does look like the GXR with the 50mm EFOV-macro module is a brilliant camera that changes the camera vs sensor vs lens paradigm. The GXR looks like the first interchangeable lens camera that has been designed as a digital camera from the ground up, rather than a camera being based on a film camera paradigm, like the X1. There are at least three major advantages of having the sensor and lens in one module, which are worth summarizing here: 1. Elimination of the sensor dust problem that comes from changing lenses; 2. Providing the user with the same interface for widely different lens/sensor combinations, which is a great plus because switching between different digital cameras can be confusing: not like switching between two film cameras, like a Leica-M and a Nikon-F, for example. So, now, one will be able to use different camera formats, while maintaining the same user interface. 3. Optimizing the lens and sensor combination for each lens. Against this, some people have expressed concern about having to replace the lens when you want to change to a new sensor; but my feeling is that the advantages of the "closed" sensor/lens unit outweighs this and, once there is a new sensor, I tend to think that there will be changes in the lens as the sensor/lens combination is optimized. It's a new ball game. Finally, many people want the simplicity of the X1 controls — an aperture wheel and and shutter speed wheel — but as some have pointed out the controls on Ricoh cameras are excellent and can be operated very simply. For example on the GRD3, which has virtually the same ones as the GXR, can be used very simply in the manual exposure and focus modes as I've described in my recent review of the GRD3. —Mitch/Bangkok Flickr: Mitch Alland's Photostream Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted November 11, 2009 Share #88 Posted November 11, 2009 ...I had a GRD and bought one of those adapters for a wide, that adapter protrusion made a heck of a difference to the cameras compactness...Imants, It certainly did, but that didn't bother me because the camera can be worn on the belt while the adaptor can be in a pocket. Also, I don't really photograph unless I'm in a "shooting mode" which, for me, means that the camera is in my right hand — and once I had the camera in my hand it didn't matter to me whether I had the wide-converter on it or not, as the camera was still small enough and light enough to permit shooting with one hand while glancing at the LCD, which is the way I like to use this camera. —Mitchj/Bangkok Walks in Bangkok (GRD3) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted November 11, 2009 Share #89 Posted November 11, 2009 We start nudging into small dslr and leica m territory and a smaller body makes the camera a ergonomic lump with larger lenses... Well the X1 is 50mm deep with the lens in and 70mm with the lens extended, the panasonicGF1 is 61.4mm with 40mm f1.7. The GXR with 50mm f2.5 depth = 74mm. None of these cameras is truly pocketable but at the same time none are DSLR size lumps either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted November 11, 2009 Share #90 Posted November 11, 2009 I did say small dslr........ Just as there is a big difference between a 9 inch and 10 inch netbooks the same is with camera depth between 50 and 74 odd ............the ricoh cmos zoom will not be a little lens ................... My RD1 and lens is only 70mm deep But As I stated at the beginning of the thread it's the 50mm focal length that will tip the scales. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted November 11, 2009 Share #91 Posted November 11, 2009 There is one thing that could kill either one of these cameras and that is slow AF, especially in low light where the AF assist light doesn't come on. Reading between the lines on DPR it seems he is concerned about the new GXR auto focus speed while acknowledging that this was a beta version and things could change. I have yet to see anything on the AF speed on the X1 though it still appears to me in the gallery on DPR that some images are focused in the wrong place. Another thing I have noticed with these small cameras, especially when you hold them out using the LCD for framing is that without IS it is very hard to eliminate camera shake induced blur below 1/30 to 1/60 of a second where I found it easy with the M8 to get down to 1/8th at the same focal length. The additional weight and holding it to my face helped stabilize the camera. The EP-1 was the exception due to its built in stabilization. Having had the E-P1 and the GF1, I can tell you first hand that IS in body really helps. The other thing is that the difference in AF speed is small but very significant between the two cameras and even more significant was the time to write the file to the SD card. The Panasonic is almost instantaneous while the EP-1 takes 5-6 seconds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted November 11, 2009 Share #92 Posted November 11, 2009 The more I think about the concept, the more I like it. Consider this: when you want to use a zoom, its about having an all in one camera with you. A small sensor will keep the zoom lens small. Portraiture: shallow depth of field, larger sensor, longer lens. Architecture: wide angle, sharp focus with wide dof, medium sensor etc. Right now, I am using different cameras to achieve all this. All of a sudden the modules make sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speenth Posted November 11, 2009 Share #93 Posted November 11, 2009 This modular concept is a true example of lateral-thinking. Many posts here (including some of my own) are comparing the Ricoh with the X1 and other conventional cameras. But Ricoh has launched a unique system. Its potential for scientific and technical applications is almost unlimited - the very look of the camera suggests that may be Ricoh's intention. The fact the modules can be used remote from the camera is full of exciting possibilities. For wildlife photographers nirvana may be within sight - to be able to place a module (or modules) close to the action, but compose and shoot from a distance is very exciting, not least because it is a relatively low tech and affordable solution and previews suggest the images could be of a very high technical standard. I love the idea of storage modules, projector modules, printer modules etc. Telescope and microscope modules can't be far away, or x-ray image intensifier modules - where will it all end ....! One forum member has suggested that Ricoh makes the modular system 'open-source' - Ricoh would have to look carefully at the business model, but for many punters that could be the clincher - the possibilities become endless. I like my Leica stuff for all the usual Leica qualities and I do not see the Ricoh system as a rival - except with regards to the X1. I was vaguely wavering towards an X1 as a pocketable companion to my M8. Now I'm wavering in another direction ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted November 11, 2009 Share #94 Posted November 11, 2009 Maybe this is another nail in the coffin for SLR cameras and retrofocus lenses? But, could the GXR in its present form, safely be used with a fast aperture super telephoto? Cheers dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted November 11, 2009 Share #95 Posted November 11, 2009 No nail for the DSLR they will just evolve the rangefinder will find it difficult in this type of envornment, but all that is years away meanwhile its photo time imants Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 11, 2009 Share #96 Posted November 11, 2009 I'm sure Ricoh hope it's popular. Every time you want to buy a lens they get to sell you a sensor as well. How will people feel if the system takes off and they realise they've bought the same sensor several times? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottocrat Posted November 11, 2009 Share #97 Posted November 11, 2009 No nail for the DSLR they will just evolve the rangefinder will find it difficult in this type of envornment, but all that is years away meanwhile its photo time imants What I'd like to see is a return to more control for the photographer and away from full automation of everything. You can get this from high end DSLRs and of course digital rangefinders but not so much from smaller pick up and go cameras. That's why the X1 looks so great, but we have to wait and see how it works with the OVF and manual focusing. A compact camera that nails manual focusing would be wonderful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speenth Posted November 11, 2009 Share #98 Posted November 11, 2009 I'm sure Ricoh hope it's popular. Every time you want to buy a lens they get to sell you a sensor as well. How will people feel if the system takes off and they realise they've bought the same sensor several times? Hello Steve, It wouldn't worry me. Every time I buy a Leica lens I get the same glass all over again! The sensor is just one of the components in the box, no more no less. That it will be optimised for the lens optics is surely an advantage. It's good too, that the sensor is in a sealed box, safe from dust and human carelessness. The issue here is cost. Can Ricoh make such lenses optically and electronically excellent, but also price competitive? If so, they're surely on to a winner given the potential of the modular concept. I wonder if one day, we'll see Leica going down this road. Perhaps offering a more elegant (dare I say, 'retro') look to their modules. An X2 utilising some variation on this concept could be very attractive, not least for the extraordinary versatility the system would offer alongside the established Leica qualities. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted November 11, 2009 Share #99 Posted November 11, 2009 Dust can and does work its way into fixed lens compacts, which means a trip to the repairers for a clean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coup de foudre Posted November 11, 2009 Share #100 Posted November 11, 2009 A compact camera that nails manual focusing would be wonderful. that is a dream i have too. it's doable with screens right now, but i'd feel like a turd shooting that way in the street... i think that's partially why i'm enamoured with the GXR and the 50mm. you can use the AF to get it mostly right and then tweak it on the lens (this part is really important to me -- call me old-fashioned, but i hate focus by dial or whatnot on the back of a camera). i simply love this idea! that means, of course, you need to use an electronic viewfinder if you like bringing it to your eye (which i do) and i'm not so sure i'm sold on these... i know it's the wave of the future, but i'm much happier with my old rangefinder patch i'm off to my camera store, trying to get more info, and will check out the EVF on the GX200 and see if it looks any better to me now. i know it's not as advanced as the one on the GXR, but i'm seeing if i might be able to loosen up a bit in my rigid thinking. silly, isn't it? the modular, lego, bit doesn't phase me at all. it's the stupid viewfinder when i want to nail focus that is worrying me... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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