M9 - A Fabulous Buy!

[LLT]

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These two pics taken at the celebration of a certain person going O.S. with a brand new M9. Very dark environment to shoot in (see tech. specs). The relevant facts that may be of interest are:

M9 + Noctilux. 2500ISO, 1/20th sec @ f1.0 using Auto Exp. Some error apparent in exp (and focus! - actually, it is probably camera shake.) Processed in C1 Ver 5Pro, no NR or sharpening, just conversion to jpeg for web.

 

 

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Jesus ERL, that was quick! Send me more please!

[adan]

Definition of a Puritan (with apologies to H. L. Mencken): "A person haunted by the fear that someone, somewhere, is enjoying their M9."

 

You can tell these folks because it isn't enough for them to start their own thread explaining an issue they have - they are on constant guard lest anyone else say anything positive about the M9, and make sure they jump in to repeat themselves endlessly.

 

It's called "swiftboating" Swiftboating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and it's an ugly little technique.

[swamiji]

I am not saying that they are bad photos. They may be very artistic. I have no axe to grind.

 

But to crow about the quality of the M9 and the Summilux, and then use those photos as examples is bizarre. Let's have some reality here.

 

Actually you do, the same as many others... $10,000 price tag. Reality, like photography is subjective....

[LLT]

Wow some damning comments out there... I remain orgasmic! I think people who tries to compare a Leica M to a DSLR, even though both are 'digital cameras' persay, are simply comparing apples to oranges! Technicalities aside, it's a matter of choice - Those who choose an 'M' choose it for a very different reason to those who choose a huge, in your face DSLR.

 

Personally, I love my M! It tests my capabilities as a photographer... I love all the manual aspects about it! The manual focusing (love the fact that I'm not leaving it up to an AF to decide where it's going to focus!), the lack of 'in built' noise reduction software and the other hundred other buttons and options you get from a DSLR, the 'abstract' results from it every now and then (whether it be a shot gone wrong or not, it tells a story... it takes you back to the moment of when that picture was captured!), the fact that I don't have people shunning me thinking I'm part of some media group is a huge plus ....

 

Let's not forget that even though technology has enabled us to push ISOs to some out of this world level, then an inbuilt software to 'smooth' the noise (good or bad), the camera is there for one purpose and one only... to capture that moment! Just like it was there to do decades before us! And hey, if I choose to pay $9K to do so, accompanied by a suite of sexy Leica M lenses, I remain very orgasmic about it all!

[erl]

Well said LLT. I have more to say on this topic which must wait as I must go and shoot my grandson playing cricket right now. I can add that I will use the M9 AND get sharp pics, quite different from those I shot last night. For a start, I will be much more sober. Glad I wasn't using one of those ugly bulky DSLR's last night. I know I would have been thrown out of the venue. As it is, no one really noticed me.

[jaapv]

I am not saying that they are bad photos. They may be very artistic. I have no axe to grind.

 

But to crow about the quality of the M9 and the Summilux, and then use those photos as examples is bizarre. Let's have some reality here.

Did I crow? I posted the image without comment. And I commented later that it is on or beyond the limit of a sharp image, thus impressionistic. If you wish, an example of what one cannot do. Although it may well be that an 50.000 ISO shot with some fancy Canikon might have produced something smooooth and tack-sharp. Chances are that I would have had the same issues with it as I had with the flash pics. The comment about "needing" an 11.000 $ camera for that seems rather beside the point to me.

[mwilliamsphotography]

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Oh, the double standard of it all.

 

When a good Leica shot is posted the refrain is often repeated ... "It is the person behind the camera, not the camera !"

 

When not so good, it reverts to the accusation that it is, of course, the camera's fault.

 

LOL!

[M. Valdemar]

You're all acting like children.

 

And using the term "Canikon" is pretty much moronic. Are you trying to establish yourself as a independent "loner", who refuses to use the camera of the masses? (obviously a guy who spends 300 Euro to have a few lines engraved on their camera feels that the objects he owns identify him as someone who is not a member of the hoi polloi)

 

I have no objection to anyone enjoying their M9, spending a lot of money, doing whatever they please. Don't use my posts as a Rorschach test for your insecurities.

[M. Valdemar]

Absolutely not. Taken entirely out of context. A straw man post.

 

These shots were posted to demonstrate the technical capability of high-ISO Leica photos. As such, they were absurd.

 

If you are judging artistic merit, then of course, it is the person behind the camera, not the camera.

 

Almost any modern camera is capable of adequate technical image quality.

 

You have no argument from me that a full-frame Leica image, taken with the Kodak image sensor without the AA filter, and with a good Leica lens, will have exceptional image quality with excellent sharpness and perceptual quality.

 

Oh, the double standard of it all.

 

When a good Leica shot is posted the refrain is often repeated ... "It is the person behind the camera, not the camera !"

 

When not so good, it reverts to the accusation that it is, of course, the camera's fault.

 

LOL!

[M. Valdemar]

Well, if you're so enamored over all these remarkable "features", the best camera for you would be an Ansco Box Camera. Nobody will shun you because you represent a "media group", nothing will decide your focus for you, and you can have a splendid collection of blurry "story-telling photos". How silly. You merely repeat foolish mantras.

 

If you're using an AF camera and you want to focus, turn off the AF switch or put on a manual focus lens. Focus to your heart's content in semi-darkness and "test" your capabilities.

 

 

 

 

 

Personally, I love my M! It tests my capabilities as a photographer... I love all the manual aspects about it! The manual focusing (love the fact that I'm not leaving it up to an AF to decide where it's going to focus!), the lack of 'in built' noise reduction software and the other hundred other buttons and options you get from a DSLR, the 'abstract' results from it every now and then (whether it be a shot gone wrong or not, it tells a story... it takes you back to the moment of when that picture was captured!), the fact that I don't have people shunning me thinking I'm part of some media group is a huge plus ....

 

[M. Valdemar]

None of this has anything to do with anything being discussed. However, you can sound very edumacated quoting Mencken and talking about "swiftboating". What that has to do with the price of tea on China is beyond me, though.

 

Definition of a Puritan (with apologies to H. L. Mencken): "A person haunted by the fear that someone, somewhere, is enjoying their M9."

 

You can tell these folks because it isn't enough for them to start their own thread explaining an issue they have - they are on constant guard lest anyone else say anything positive about the M9, and make sure they jump in to repeat themselves endlessly.

 

It's called "swiftboating" Swiftboating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and it's an ugly little technique.

[mwilliamsphotography]

Absolutely not. Taken entirely out of context. A straw man post.

 

These shots were posted to demonstrate the technical capability of high-ISO Leica photos. As such, they were absurd.

 

If you are judging artistic merit, then of course, it is the person behind the camera, not the camera.

 

Almost any modern camera is capable of adequate technical image quality.

 

You have no argument from me that a full-frame Leica image, taken with the Kodak image sensor without the AA filter, and with a good Leica lens, will have exceptional image quality with excellent sharpness and perceptual quality.

 

Your assumption is that the shooters know how to get the most out of a high ISO M9 shot ... and when they don't it is, by implication and the tenor of your posts, the camera's fault.

 

Just curious, is being personally insulting a product of your upbringing, or were you born with it?

 

And while my friends may call me Straw Man ... it's "Mr." Straw Man to you.

 

LOL!

[wilfredo]

When Leica announced the improvement in high ISO noise in the M9, I was a little dubious I must admit.

 

I haven't got the images here to post, but I feel I must share! The improvement has just blown me away! I cranked the ISO up to about 1600 (haven't yet pushed it further), and the results were amazing! Noise, yes, but minimal! TO be honest, I'd rather there be noise than the images being "smoothed" internally! Compared to the M8, the improvements are very visible!

 

I can keep listing the improvements and the why's to buy the M9... you'll just have to try it for yourselves!

 

 

I think the line "The improvements has just blown me away!" and "the results were amazing" pertaining to 1600 ISO is what might have gotten some here to question the celebration of the M9 some of the M9 buyers are displaying. I can see a modest improvement in ISO quality over the M8, but nothing amazing. Noise is something I've learned to accept with the M8 and frankly I very seldom use it when I know noise will be an issue.

 

Now, if I need to shoot in low light, like the street scene below, I use My Canon 5D II. This shot was done at 6400, ISO (Sixty four hundred ISO). The M camera has a long way to go before it will deliver anything like this. That is a simple fact of life.

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[jaapv]

It is an excellent shot, Wilfredo, and technically fine. Inasfar as one can see on a web-jpg, of course. I bet I could have gotten the same result with an M9 on ISO 1600 or even 1000, btw,seeing you took it at 1/80th and f 4.0. I can better you by five stops in lens speed and at least one with handholding a 90 mm, that is six stops gain for the M9. Wait a minute! That is ISO 320 !

[wilfredo]

Jaap,

 

The "fact of life" I point out here remains the same. There is no way around it as much as you or anyone else might want to dance circles around it. Sorry, it is what it is.

 

Having sad that, I'm happy for those who find that the M9 is the best tool for their working needs even with the hefty price tag. But, if you are an M9 purchaser, I suggest you don't exaggerate the virtues of the camera if you don't want a reaction.

 

Happy Shooting...

[jaapv]

It still would not make me buy a 5DII for that shot, I fear...

[wilfredo]

That's fine, you have the right to choose what you like. My point is a technical one, something I hardly ever do BTW.

[erl]

I don't think these photos are so great.

 

In reality, the right tool for the job here would be something like a Nikon D700 with a fast prime, and AF.

 

Do you need $11,000 worth of M9 camera and lenses to get some crummy out of focus photos? You can't even focus correctly in the dark, and you can't use a high enough shutter speed.

 

You guys are delusional.

 

M.Valdemar, yoiu are the one that is delusional if you think a D700 with AF etc would have been the right tool for the job. I total respect your right to express that opinion, but to call others who have made a judgement to use other gear, delusional, is just plain rude and obnoxious. You weren't there and not privy to the situation.

 

In my view, and that is all it is, the pics I posted were intended to show (how successfully, you may judge) the total vitues of using a RF camera. Situation: A public venue, extreme low light (2500 ISO, f1.0, 1/20th), a drinking crowd, photographer having consumed the best part of a bottle of champagne, a desire to record the mood and atmosphere of the event, a need to be as discreet as possible, no desire to grapple with large heavy gear (which I do have), etc. I think that paints the picture (maybe better than my images!), etc. Leica cameras, IMHO, outstrip all other choices of gear for such a scenario. The M9 has some edge on its predecessor but I was posting mainly to support a new M9 owner celebrate the event by exhibiting what I consider a good image (my 1st pic anyway) of mood and event. I defy any DSLR operator to have got to 1st base in this particular situation. You see, Leicas are about more than technical perfection. That is barely the tip of the iceberg. The photographer is always the larger portion of the equation, but that is not the issue here AFAIK.

[erl]

I think the line "The improvements has just blown me away!" and "the results were amazing" pertaining to 1600 ISO is what might have gotten some here to question the celebration of the M9 some of the M9 buyers are displaying. I can see a modest improvement in ISO quality over the M8, but nothing amazing. Noise is something I've learned to accept with the M8 and frankly I very seldom use it when I know noise will be an issue.

 

Now, if I need to shoot in low light, like the street scene below, I use My Canon 5D II. This shot was done at 6400, ISO (Sixty four hundred ISO). The M camera has a long way to go before it will deliver anything like this. That is a simple fact of life.

 

Wifredo, I think you have fallen into the common trap of "raining on someone elses parade". LLT initial was sharing her joy at getting her M9 literally hours before departing to Africa to take a photography workshop to orphans in that, and other countries. I appreciate and celebrate that joy to precede her arduous task ahead. There is no need to agree with her (or me), but likewise there is no need to point out "you can do it better with a Canon whatever". Frankly, I could point out that your Canon shot could be done witha Box Brownie, but to what point?

 

Personally, I wish LLT the very best with her venture and I am glad she is very happy with her M9. She deserves it!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[wilfredo]

Wifredo, I think you have fallen into the common trap of "raining on someone elses parade". LLT initial was sharing her joy at getting her M9 literally hours before departing to Africa to take a photography workshop to orphans in that, and other countries. I appreciate and celebrate that joy to precede her arduous task ahead. There is no need to agree with her (or me), but likewise there is no need to point out "you can do it better with a Canon whatever". Frankly, I could point out that your Canon shot could be done witha Box Brownie, but to what point?

 

Personally, I wish LLT the very best with her venture and I am glad she is very happy with her M9. She deserves it!

 

And so do I, I wish her the best. A Box Brownie? I'm totally out of here... But I do hope my point is well taken by those seriously considering the purchase of an M9. A more balanced point of view is called for IMHO.