frc Posted November 28, 2006 Share #21 Posted November 28, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) What percentage do we give Leica;-? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 28, 2006 Posted November 28, 2006 Hi frc, Take a look here M8 - Amateur Photographer Review. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
plasticman Posted November 28, 2006 Share #22 Posted November 28, 2006 No Leica M series ever was a "top perfoming camera "straight out of the box. All require the user to enter a learning curve and to realise that the camera is indeed a tool that must be mastered. That is completely different in philosophy of for instance the midrange DSLR market, which is aimed at performing as good as possible whilst taking an automated shortcut from the subject to the final print without passing through the brain of the user. With all due respect, i'm filing this in the same folder as the thread that pretty much wanted to convince us that lack of IR-sensitivity was a grievious shortcoming in the human eye, and that Leica's version of reality was therefore superior and 'more correct'. That the M8's difficulties make it somehow 'superior' to those ridiculously simple [irony] DSLRs definitely merits a place in the honored 'BS' folder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfogle Posted November 28, 2006 Share #23 Posted November 28, 2006 ...(snip)...No Leica M series ever was a "top perfoming camera "straight out of the box...I don't get this comment - up til now, every M series Leica was a film box with a hole for a lens and a hole for the eye - and since the build quality, shutter accuracy etc was 'top performing', it deserves that description. IMO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 28, 2006 Share #24 Posted November 28, 2006 No autofocus- you had to learn to turn the lens.. no autoexposure - you had to learn sunny f16 or read the Sekonic manual, first three films took half an hour to load and didn't transport... Do I need to go on? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M'Ate Posted November 28, 2006 Share #25 Posted November 28, 2006 No autofocus- you had to learn to turn the lens.. no autoexposure - you had to learn sunny f16 or read the Sekonic manual, first three films took half an hour to load and didn't transport... Do I need to go on? Come on Jaapv, we're well past that stuff. We're into custom profiles and specialist RAW software. Nobody says you need that for a standard DSLR and hopefully M8 users will not need it in the future. If it were destined to stay in its current configuration, and I have no doubt that it will change, what are the chances of your well heeled dentist walking out of the shop and being satisfied with the picture he takes at the door of the passers by ? We've seen some terrific output by the guys here, but these are not your regular users. I, for one, have quite a bit of photographic experience, but I have no idea how to develop a custom profile etc. I presume it happens in the Curves box of the RAW developer and is saved as a default, but I'm not sure and I've read hundreds of posts here. For the product to reach 5,000 a year it has to be more useable out of the box. Only IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter41951 Posted November 28, 2006 Share #26 Posted November 28, 2006 Having had a good look at the AP review today it seems to me a good well-balanced one. Percentage scores give as superficial an impression as is possible so it's well worth reading the text. Some will be disappointed by references to green blobs, banding and magenta shift but the reviewer gave me the impression he really likes the camera (..."will be seen as a great achievement in photographic engineering" comes from the editorial). I will only say he was disappointed by jpeg capture's quality and issued that caveat to those who might not be planning to shoot RAW. The comment about time spent shooting RAW needed a as it seems to me one was intended. Further on in this issue he takes Canon to task for omitting RAW from the G7; apparently Canon says the majority of users of D400-type cameras don't use it, so don't see the point of including it in a camera like the G7. The reviewer, the same as that of the M8, thinks this a poor excuse. You need a thick skin to be a reviewer as your opinions will wind up so many readers; there are those who'd love the M8 to be praised to the hilt as the perfect camera, and those whose teeth will be gnashing that the review hasn't turned out to be a hatchet job. As of now my ambition to be a reviewer has sunk to 0%. :D P.S. Next week, there's a review of the Digilux 3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_r_smith Posted November 28, 2006 Share #27 Posted November 28, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hopefully, Leica will survive this rather botched product launch. And if they do, you can be very sure that the next version of the Digital M - M8-2, M9, whatever - will * Not have streaking or blobs * Have an excellent AWB * Produce excellent JPEGs out of the camera * Have first rate RAW conversion profiles * And definitely not require IR blocking filters on the lenses In other words, it will truly be a worthy successor to your film M-series cameras. And what will your M8 be worth then? John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 28, 2006 Share #28 Posted November 28, 2006 Once this initial "blip" is overcome, no one seems to be suggesting that you will need custom profiles in the future, I don't think. Don't forget that you can shoot RAW with a Canon or a Nikon dSLR if you wish, just as you can shoot jpg with an M8. All these can be as simple or as complicated as you wish. If your dentist were to buy an M8, leave it on jpg and go out and shoot, there's no reason (provided he can focus the thing...) why he shouldn't get as good if not better a result as if using a 400D. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
palaeoboy Posted November 28, 2006 Share #29 Posted November 28, 2006 I am also surprised at some of the responses to this article. Given the problems this camera has, I think the score is far higher than I would have expected. Also that I dont think I have ever seen a score above 95%, a low featured, limited market rangefinder with technical issues that I think are unacceptable, even the defenders of the faith have to be pleased with an 84. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter41951 Posted November 28, 2006 Share #30 Posted November 28, 2006 What will be the technical issues of the M8 as of December? The banding and green blobs ought not to reappear, the RAW profiles will become more satisfactory as they get included in various converters, and no doubt WB issues will be sorted out soon. The IR filters will be either acceptable or not acceptable by future prospective purchasers. Have I left anything out? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M'Ate Posted November 28, 2006 Share #31 Posted November 28, 2006 The score was quite reasonable under the current state of affairs. To be fair' date=' would you recommend the M8 to someone looking for a top performing camera straight out of the box ?? Maybe soon, but not yet.[/quote'] Once this initial "blip" is overcome, no one seems to be suggesting that you will need custom profiles in the future, I don't think." I'm with you Andy. Maybe soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M'Ate Posted November 28, 2006 Share #32 Posted November 28, 2006 The score was quite reasonable under the current state of affairs. To be fair' date=' would you recommend the M8 to someone looking for a top performing camera straight out of the box ?? Maybe soon, but not yet.[/quote'] Once this initial "blip" is overcome, no one seems to be suggesting that you will need custom profiles in the future, I don't think." I'm with you Andy. Maybe soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter41951 Posted November 28, 2006 Share #33 Posted November 28, 2006 Am I getting the wrong impression about this site? The word "amateur" seems to be bandied about by some as though it's an insult or a disability. Where's the Leica Forum for amateurs? For that's where I belong. (I'm not a dentist, though.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted November 28, 2006 Share #34 Posted November 28, 2006 No Leica M series ever was a "top perfoming camera "straight out of the box. All require the user to enter a learning curve and to realise that the camera is indeed a tool that must be mastered. Hmmm, but assuming you can focus and use an exposure meter, which are about as basic as the learning curve gets IMO, then any new M film camera would indeed be 'top performing' out of the box. Its not a complicated camera in fact the simplicity of the Leica is its raison d'etre. There was nothing else in between you and the final negative/slide. However, assuming the about to be released M8 Mk2 (with filters) is finally right then it should also be 'top performing', if not 'out of the box' because one has to wait for ones filters to arrive. I will read the review on the train home, but AP are indeed a Leica friendly publication. The editor is a keen Leica user as are some of the contributors. There is rarely an edition that doesn't mention Leica in fact. From a reviewers point of view they have to look at it impassionately too, which most of us don't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted November 28, 2006 Share #35 Posted November 28, 2006 In other words, it will truly be a worthy successor to your film M-series cameras. And what will your M8 be worth then? I have no idea and don't really care. By the time that happens I expect to have had much more than £2.5k worth of use out of the M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhsimmonds Posted November 28, 2006 Share #36 Posted November 28, 2006 Well, after the DMR review I have not been a fan of "AP", I cancelled my subscription and then had the mag passed on to me a few days after publication by my neighbour......I pass on the BJP in return! "AP" is still a good train ride read though James, are you home before finishing the advert pages! So I have read the M8 review. It isn't an elegant read but in "AP" defence they do NOT bring cost into the equation when rating a camera. However they do mention the problems "reported on the internet" and were unable to reproduce some of them during their tests. What I did find interesting is the final rating of 84%. In September of this year "AP" reviewed the Epson RD1s and rated it at 85%! The reviewer rated the RD1s for well-controlled noise and good software but marked against it for low pixel count (2006), high price(!) and tendency to fall asleep whilst using! (the "AP" has the same effect on me!) I find the British Journal of Photography (BJP) reviews are excellent, detailed and honest as befits a journal for professional photographers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted November 28, 2006 Share #37 Posted November 28, 2006 No Leica M series ever was a "top perfoming camera "straight out of the box. All require the user to enter a learning curve and to realise that the camera is indeed a tool that must be mastered. That is completely different in philosophy of for instance the midrange DSLR market, which is aimed at performing as good as possible whilst taking an automated shortcut from the subject to the final print without passing through the brain of the user. Don't get me wrong, both approaches are valid and I suppose the automated road is the smoothest one commercially, it just happens I choose for the Leica option. Leica film cameras - I always thought they worked perfectly right out of the box. Ages ago, I sold them and I used them a little in my film days. It was pretty easy to explain how they worked to a buyer. You opened the box, attached the lens, opened the bottom cover, loaded it with film, advanced to frame 1, set shutter speed and f stop, focused and shot. Then advanced to the next frame. When you were done, turn the lever to rewind and wind the film back. Doesn't that pretty much cover it? It works pretty much like every other manual film camera I've used. Where is the learning curve? If you are already a good photographer, there is nothing to master. (Wasn't that the point of its simplicity?) Learning how to be a good photographer is a completely different issue. If anything, the cameras with various auto focus settings, auto exposure, various metering patterns, motor advance, TTL flash settings, etc. have a much longer learning curve. All digital cameras have some kind of learning curve. More so the less you are familiar with the genre. But the first day I got a digital SLR camera, I set it on manual exposure and jpeg recording, I did use AF and AWB though. The pictures were pretty good right out of the box. Even before I learned how a lot of the features worked and before I learned the raw processing software. Until the "issues" arose, I don't think anyone expected the M8 to be any different. Maybe even easier because the controls are simple and familiar to most users. Now it is fine with me if people take pride in figuring out how to get the most out of the M8 or any camera. But is this learning curve really the adoption of a useful new skill or just a stopgap requirement to allow the camera to function as it should have "right out of the box?" Prior to this, not many people spent time testing IR blocking filters and playing with so many camera profiles, etc. In my mind, using a Leica was about simplicity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted November 28, 2006 Share #38 Posted November 28, 2006 In my mind, using a Leica was about simplicity. Well said! My intention in ordering the M8 was that it was destined to cut away all the 'digital fog' that i felt was beginning to envelope me whenever i used a camera - be it my little Dlux2 or the bureau's 10D. The simple act of pressing a shutter and connecting directly with what i saw - as in my days of film. Now, all strength to the dedicated few who are willing to process, workaround and use esoteric filters - but in spite of the very vocal defense of the camera from members on this forum, no-one can convince me otherwise than that we ALL expected the M8 to be the perfect digital camera right out of the box. It's not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 28, 2006 Share #39 Posted November 28, 2006 We -myself included- are photography-blind on these forums It is hard for us to remember or even image the esoteric science that exposure or focussing is to 85 % of photography consumers. And even though a M3 is superbly easy to operate for us, the average shooter who wants to take a shot of Aunty Priscilla demolishing an ice-cream cone on the beach will have a far better result with a Minolta AF camera than with a Leica M whatever, as the shot will be a. in focus and b. more or less correctly exposed. Heck- it is often even too difficult to push the "exposure-correction" button on the ski-slope, giving rise to thousands of refused prints in March. This does not make us better people - merely better photographers, maybe, but it does make a minimalistic camera like the Leica's certainly not suitable for out-of-the box use. On top of photographic basics there is now a row of digital basics - Raw conversion - colour balance- levels - sharpening RAW-TIFF-JPEG- resolution. All basics that most of us have learnt over the last years or are mastering right now - but utterly Sanskrit to the average P&S shooter, who will probably botch every shot with a M8 or a 1DsII compared to the results a C-Lux 1 will give. Again - skill - not out of the box, just as it always was. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicaM8freak Posted November 28, 2006 Share #40 Posted November 28, 2006 Well are we giving out to amateurs....they don't understand the first thing of the techniques to be used? I must say a pretty arrogant statement of all the " dy hards" here. I know a lot of "pros" who's "photographs" cannot even stand (or hang) in the shadow of some of the " amateurs" I know. Who is JaapV to claim that M cameras are only built for his kind of breed? (obviously a "pro") Why don' t you go and open your own forum where pros can stick feathers up each others you know whats? I know about at least one PRO who totaly misleaded the entire world in a review about the M8....remember? (luminous landscape?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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