mjh Posted October 29, 2009 Share #41 Posted October 29, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) With many many R users wanting to buy an R 10 Many? Really? 188 as of now, if we take the number of people signing the petition as indicative of interest in the R10. Maybe the number will reach 1000 in the end, and if it does, it will still be far too small to warrant serious attention. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Hi mjh, Take a look here Petition for a Leica R10. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wilfredo Posted October 30, 2009 Share #42 Posted October 30, 2009 Many? Really? 188 as of now, if we take the number of people signing the petition as indicative of interest in the R10. Maybe the number will reach 1000 in the end, and if it does, it will still be far too small to warrant serious attention. Take into consideration that these numbers only represent a small bunch of photographers who frequent this forum. There are thousands out there who don't have a clue about this petition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted October 30, 2009 Share #43 Posted October 30, 2009 Have Leica ever made any money from the R cameras? I doubt it. They were always a very, very niche market with minute volumes and to be honest, should probably have been killed off years ago. Speaking as an R user, who sold his DMR in anticipation of an R10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted October 30, 2009 Share #44 Posted October 30, 2009 Take into consideration that these numbers only represent a small bunch of photographers who frequent this forum. There are thousands out there who don't have a clue about this petition. Wilfredo, this thread has had 887 "hits" at last count. I suspect many are people like me who are well aware of the petition, but consider it a waste of time. The M was a loved system that was brought back from the brink by the vision of a few sensible men in Midland. The R system, whether you like it or not, appears to have no "champion" within Leica, and is simply not loved enough. Not enough people care enough. It's sad but it's true, I shall go on enjoying my R7 and lenses as they are, for as long as there is film - I suspect both elements of the equation will be around for a long time to come. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 30, 2009 Share #45 Posted October 30, 2009 I've signed the petition and I've typed a rather long post as reply to Michael's post above, which really doesn't sound like music, but then I deleted it. Why should I bother and disagree? he is telling the truth. It's not like that I don't have a camera to play with or, a R10 will change anything in my pictures. It's not like that I have to buy everything Leica builds, if there's nothing that I like, then they won't have my money, pretty simple. I think Leica dropped the R in a doomed effort to promote the S but that's their own business and their choice. Leica's top priority now seems to be moving unsold stocks rather than pushing out new products. Leica Japan is now offering a deep discount to move the unsold M8/M8.2s, if you spend 693000 Yen on a M8 or 777000 Yen on a M8.2 they'll give you a 130000 Yen JCB gift card. Hey, they have got some Digilux 3s left too, for anything to pay for it, they'll return you 70000 Yen in gift card. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miami91 Posted October 30, 2009 Share #46 Posted October 30, 2009 Many? Really? 188 as of now, if we take the number of people signing the petition as indicative of interest in the R10. Maybe the number will reach 1000 in the end, and if it does, it will still be far too small to warrant serious attention. Not to mention that since signing a petition costs nothing (other than a minute or two of effort), it can hardly be considered a very accurate proxy of how many cameras would actually be sold. So sure, there are thousands of potential customers who are unawares of the existence of the petition. But I would also hazard a guess that many of the people who have signed would not follow through with orders if the camera were made, particularly if it had a price tag somewhere between the M9 and S2. On the other hand, if we had 1,000 people willing to pay 5,000 euros up front as a deposit for the development of the camera, we might actually get the attention of Solms.... Jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted October 30, 2009 Share #47 Posted October 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think Leica dropped the R in a doomed effort to promote the S but that's their own business and their choice. I can't see that that's the case given the price of the S2 and lenses, which I imagine are way outside the budget of all but a few R shooters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 30, 2009 Share #48 Posted October 30, 2009 I can't see that that's the case given the price of the S2 and lenses, which I imagine are way outside the budget of all but a few R shooters. Why not the case? If the R10 adopts the same 6 micron pixel pitch but scaled down 24x36mm sensor, then people will be hard pressed to see the differences between a R10 and a S2. A R10 would be the closest and immediate danger to the S2. Leica knows very well that they have no chance to charge over 10 grand for a R10 so they bet on the S2 for a fat profit margin. If you can get a R10 for 10 grand, why would you spend 20+ grand on a S2? Only the brain dead will be interested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted October 30, 2009 Share #49 Posted October 30, 2009 Have Leica ever made any money from the R cameras? I doubt it. They were always a very, very niche market with minute volumes and to be honest, should probably have been killed off years ago. Speaking as an R user, who sold his DMR in anticipation of an R10 I guess this is the urban legend today... In fact, the R out sold the M substantially in the 70's and 80's... there's a reason the M was killed off at the time... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelos Viskadourakis Posted October 31, 2009 Share #50 Posted October 31, 2009 Why not the case? If the R10 adopts the same 6 micron pixel pitch but scaled down 24x36mm sensor, then people will be hard pressed to see the differences between a R10 and a S2. A R10 would be the closest and immediate danger to the S2. Leica knows very well that they have no chance to charge over 10 grand for a R10 so they bet on the S2 for a fat profit margin. If you can get a R10 for 10 grand, why would you spend 20+ grand on a S2? Only the brain dead will be interested. i agree is a very serious situation but R dont need to cost that high and Canon overtook the markets with innovations ,with rather vey good offerings and affordable prices that is the recipy and can return very fat profits very fast- to Leica compared to any profit projection of the S2.-really very small market. If i only had one R8/R9 ergonomicaly functioning digital camera body i would sell all my hard working and earning money excellent Canons and i would never look back again,never. PS :R8/R9 cameras dont compare to R7 they are so much more advanced and intuitive and so complete design. QUOTE:"I guess this is the urban legend today... In fact, the R out sold the M substantially in the 70's and 80's... there's a reason the M was killed off at the time... __________________ http://www.duroseau.com www.lightstalkers.org/conrad-duroseau" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
petermcwerner Posted November 1, 2009 Share #51 Posted November 1, 2009 I signed the petition today. Status is 280 now. I have a heavy investment in R glass, including for instance the 35-70/2.8 Vario Elmarit. For the time being, and before resolving to go the Leotax path, I use the R lenses on my G1. It would not look too difficult nor extremely expensive to build (perhaps by Panasonic) a full-format G1 with the M9 sensor. No need of AF nor IS for the base model, just be able to use existing lenses manually. If it does well, later add AF and IS and compatible lenses that would open a new lens market for Leica. Do sign the petition here. If it will not achieve anything, at least we tried our best Cheers Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
petermcwerner Posted November 1, 2009 Share #52 Posted November 1, 2009 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Click on the picture or here to sign the petition Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Click on the picture or here to sign the petition ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/101455-petition-for-a-leica-r10/?do=findComment&comment=1098485'>More sharing options...
germio Posted November 1, 2009 Share #53 Posted November 1, 2009 The R system, whether you like it or not, appears to have no "champion" within Leica, and is simply not loved enough.Bill Not true. The management buyout of the 1990s that led to Leica Camera AG becoming an independent, public company was a decision mostly driven by the R line (more specifically, the R8 which Leica poured millions of dollars into.) At that time the R was a very profitable line because each camera sold would be accompanied by several lens and accessory sales, something not to be expected for the M line. Deutsche Bank, one of the banks behind Leica's IPO, published at that time a detailed report about Leica's strategy. The M became popular again only in the late 1990s ("rangefinder boom"), just as the R began to fall out of favor. IMHO Leica's sacking of the R line was a foolish move. Trends come and go, and they'l need a reflex line to hedge against future uncertainty. In the 60-70s they suffered greatly for being slow to the reflex market; earlier in this decade, it almost looked like digital was only fully realizable for reflex. You'd think that the company would have learned to not put all their eggs in one basket Based on the DMR's demand, Leica should be able to sell 6--8 thousand fullframe DSLRs in a year. (Compare to 10,000 annual M body sales.) I think Leica knew the market was there, for otherwise they wouldn't have started the R10 project in the first place. The subsequent sacking was most likely motivated by the economic downturn or fear of cannibalizing the S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 1, 2009 Share #54 Posted November 1, 2009 SKL was the R champion within Leica. As soon as he went, the R went too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted November 1, 2009 Share #55 Posted November 1, 2009 Not true. What part is untrue? Name me the person within Leica rooting for the R-line. Which system exists today? I don't think it is up for debate. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted November 1, 2009 Share #56 Posted November 1, 2009 SKL was the R champion within Leica. As soon as he went, the R went too. So who is packing up right now? If Leica had spent their money on buying Apple stocks in the past 7 years, every employee could have gone on vacation and worry about nothing right now. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/101455-petition-for-a-leica-r10/?do=findComment&comment=1098933'>More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 1, 2009 Share #57 Posted November 1, 2009 So could I have done. I don't quite see your point. I don't know what you mean by "packing up". Sorry. With hindsight, you'd go back to 1976 and bet your house and your Mum's house and your Granny's house on Apple stock. You wouldn't have done so at the time. SKL was the R user in Leica senior management. He was the one championing for an R10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted November 1, 2009 Share #58 Posted November 1, 2009 I'm sorry about my off topic post, Andy. My point was only that in terms of making money, building cameras seems to be a rather bad idea. I mentioned about 7 years ago 'cause I remembered that was the time Dr K started pouring money in Leica ... I could be wrong about that anyways. You could feel free to delete my post(s). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilfredo Posted November 1, 2009 Share #59 Posted November 1, 2009 BTW Has anyone seen a detailed explanation from Leica shedding some light as to why the R-10 project was dumped? QUE VIVA LA R 10 - QUE VIVA!!! :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 1, 2009 Share #60 Posted November 1, 2009 BTW Has anyone seen a detailed explanation from Leica shedding some light as to why the R-10 project was dumped? No, but I would guess that the shortened explanation ran along the lines of (development costs) / (units sold) = too high a price Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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