RD-1/ M9 Comparison request

[sean_reid]

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It is clear that the M9 (and the M8) are superior to the RD-1, but I was wondering if anyone has a direct comparison between the M9 and the RD-1 files. I (like so many) am waiting for my M9 and I was trying to imagine the difference that it will make. Don’t get me wrong, I have really enjoyed my RD-1, but it just can’t deliver large size prints and I am looking forward to using some of the lenses that I put into semiretirement with the RD-1.

 

Apologies in advance to those that may view this to be a silly request.

 

Thanks

 

It isn't a silly request. After all, DRF photographers are already a very small and specialized group. R-D1 photographers just take that specialization a step further. And I do think history will credit the R-D1 for what it accomplished - certainly I do when writing about the short history of DRF cameras.

 

To your question. I won't be comparing the M9 directly to the R-D1 but if you look at the R-D1/M8 comparisons (in the M8 review) and then the M8/M9 comparisons (in the M9 review) you should get a good, albeit indirect, idea of how the R-D1 and M9 compare.

 

As you might expect, there's quite a bit of difference between a 6-MP camera with an AA filter and an 18-MP camera without one. But the R-D1 still produces beautiful files, esp. for smaller prints. And it still pioneered some excellent controls designs.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[carstenw]

I am not saying that there is not a strong fanbase, I am just saying that it isn't large, and in general the camera is not known outside a small circle of fans and rangefinder enthusiasts. A revolution to me has a large impact, but the R-D1 didn't. A few people were *very* pleased though

[mn4367]

Carsten,

 

if you go to rangefinderforum.com, there is pretty much activity for a "forgotten footnote" which you can still buy new in the form of the R-D1s. And apart from being the first DRF, Epson released it at a time (AFAIK) when Leica claimed a DRF would be impossible.

Can you show us the official/unofficial source which definitely says that there won't be a successor? I'm interested.

 

KR,

Michael

[jaapv]

I didn't buy Bessas before the age of digitals because I disliked both the ergonomics and the build quality - and the looks too; and I cannot see any changes in those differences when comparing an RD-1 to an M8 or M9. Each to his own - Voigtlander must have fans, or the cameras wouldn't have sold. The RD-1 was quite an interesting camera in its day, the images were fine too - as good as the D70, and will still hold up, but time has moved on, as Carsten implies.

[carstenw]

Carsten,

 

if you go to rangefinderforum.com, there is pretty much activity for a "forgotten footnote" which you can still buy new in the form of the R-D1s. And apart from being the first DRF, Epson released it at a time (AFAIK) when Leica claimed a DRF would be impossible.

Can you show us the official/unofficial source which definitely says that there won't be a successor? I'm interested.

 

KR,

Michael

 

There is no official statement to that effect, no, hence my use of the word "silently". However, I don't expect that Epson released it expecting gentle sales, tapering off to near-nothing when the M8 came out, so I cannot imagine it ever being updated. I could imagine someone else running with the idea, like the Voigtländer brand, for example, but no direct successor.

[mn4367]

There is no official statement to that effect, no, hence my use of the word "silently". However, I don't expect that Epson released it expecting gentle sales, tapering off to near-nothing when the M8 came out, so I cannot imagine it ever being updated. I could imagine someone else running with the idea, like the Voigtländer brand, for example, but no direct successor.

 

I don't expect it either. But nevertheless I was surprised when they released the "s"-version (which was a step backwards IMO through the removal of the swivel screen). Time will tell.

[coup de foudre]

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Jaap,

 

there is absolutely no comparison in terms of sex appeal -- Leica wins hands down! (especially your grey, i might add )

 

but in terms of handling and actual use, the Epson is king -- at least for me. everything you need is right there, even with the screen (which i admit is near useless) folded over. every control i need is right there -- i can even do it by feel, no menu fumbling necessary. i truly wish Leica had followed suit.

[sean_reid]

The Epson's methods displaying (and/or setting) ISO, EV comp., frames remaining, recording mode, battery level and white balance are still some of the simplest, most attractive and most functional I've yet seen. They're both traditional, in some senses, and highly innovative in others. I can think of no digital camera that relies less on its LCD screen.

 

The finder and rangefinder on the Epson are not up to what we see from Leica and there is indeed a big difference between a 1.5X crop 6 MP sensor with AA filter and a FF, 18 MP, no AA filter sensor. Still, I think the Epson is a wonderful camera and I'm keeping mine. My daughter steals it whenever she can.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[adan]

I don't buy that the R-D1 is "another M3" just because of 1:1 viewing. Evaluating a camera based on 10% (or less) of its overall functionality (i.e. viewfinder magnification) is misleading. A good lawyer will always try to find and emphasize the one salient fact that is most beneficial to his client's defense. Unfortunately, as a juror, I tend to ignore the lawyers, look at ALL the facts, and usually find against the defendant.

 

I'm sure it would not stand up - overall - to an M8 or M9 in any way except for a decent advantage in low light noise. I've used all three.

 

But I do agree that it has a place in history: first, as THE first digital rangefinder camera ever, and second, as the kick-in-the-behind that forced Leica to stop hiding behind excuses and ostrich-skin and apply some real engineering after 35 years of technical stagnation, living off the M4-M6 legacy.

[sean_reid]

[quote=adan;1087241

I'm sure it would not stand up - overall - to an M8 or M9 in any way except for a decent advantage in low light noise. I've used all three.

 

Hi Andy,

 

True - compared to the M8, it holds up well with respect to ISO noise even when the M8 file is sized to match the R-D1 file. The R-D1, as you suggest, performs quite well at ISO 1600.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[mn4367]

Jaap,

 

there is absolutely no comparison in terms of sex appeal -- Leica wins hands down! (especially your grey, i might add )

 

but in terms of handling and actual use, the Epson is king -- at least for me. everything you need is right there, even with the screen (which i admit is near useless) folded over. every control i need is right there -- i can even do it by feel, no menu fumbling necessary. i truly wish Leica had followed suit.

 

+1!

[coup de foudre]

Anyone who's interested in the Epson R-D1, have a look at my website: Epson R-D1: Why I chose it - I ended up looking after the unofficial R-D1 FAQ for reasons far too boring to go into, and still do, despite trading in my R-D1 for an M8. (Latter = better image and build quality, much worse ergonomics; I think the R-D1 design is a tour de force that Leica should have paid more attention to. OK, I wasn't a fan of the cocking lever, but that was because a Bessa shutter was used to keep costs down, not because of pointless olde worlde styling - unlike the M8's base plate!)

 

Rich,

 

your site has been a godsend to many of us. i've thanked you before and will thank you again on behalf of R-D1 owners --past, present, and future.

 

i have to respectfully disagree with you on the cocking lever: i love it! along with enjoying the rhythm manually cocking a shutter gives me, there a lot more advantages to it over the M8/M9 even with Discreet. on the R-D1, you have control of when the re-cocking takes place, without having to keep your finger on the shutter which is sometimes difficult to do when you're trying to be discreet. and you can control the speed/sound as well. granted, the R-D1 has a shutter sound that can wake the dead, but my classic M8 isn't all that quieter....

 

i would honestly pay more money to Leica if they allowed the option of a cocking lever. i'd save money by not needing a Thumbs Up anymore and, along with the quieter shutters on the M8u/M8.2/M9, it would be a dream come true.

[carstenw]

I will disagree with the cocking lever comment as well. I wish Leica had given us the option. Then again, I started into photography with an Olympus OM2n

[lct]

...i have to respectfully disagree with you on the cocking lever: i love it!...

So do i. Same short throw as the M3 DS but with one stroke only. Did i say that the R-D1 is the digital M3? It is better than the latter my friends.

[Danno_photoguy]

Thanks Sean, good suggestion. I will check the images as you say. (love your site)

 

Thanks again to all of you. When I placed my post, I did not know the RD-1 vs. Leica was such a hot button topic. I have had Leicas for over 30 years (M and R) and I love them. I have also enjoyed using the RD-1 with my Leica lenses, a real fun camera to use.

 

Thanks

[RSL]

Thanks Sean, good suggestion. I will check the images as you say. (love your site)

 

Thanks again to all of you. When I placed my post, I did not know the RD-1 vs. Leica was such a hot button topic. I have had Leicas for over 30 years (M and R) and I love them. I have also enjoyed using the RD-1 with my Leica lenses, a real fun camera to use.

 

Thanks

 

Danno, By now you ought to know that on this forum ANYTHING versus the current Leica is a hot button topic. I never bought the M8 or the M8.2 because the camera's shortcomings were obvious and well-known. At the moment I'm waiting to see what turns up with the M9. But I've owned the R-D1 for several years and I agree with the comments on this thread that point out what a useful camera the R-D1 is. It feels a lot closer to my beloved and now gone M4 than the M8 has felt when I've hefted and shot it. The cocking lever gives a degree of control not available on the Leica. As far as 135mm focusing problems on the R-D1 are concerned, the idea of a 135mm lens on a rangefinder -- a moderately short lens on a DSLR -- is so absurd I'm surprised anyone would even suggest it. That kind of mismatch used to be necessary when rangefinders were all that was available, but those days are long gone. I can't make a comparison between the M8 or M9 and the R-D1, but I can tell you that the R-D1 is a camera to hang on to if you're able to find one.

[jamriman]

I was shooting with my M8 for 2 years before I got an R-D1. It was more exciting than when I first held my M8. If you miss using film M's because your too spoiled by digital like me, you will be pleasantly surprised. The M8 will go for the M9, but the R-D1 stays. It not as well built as an M8/9 BUT IMHO it's much better designed.

[jamriman]

Rich, Yes many thanks for the R-D1 website. I use it all

the time for clarification. I do however love the shutter cock lever. It's one of a kind and I suspect will never be made by Leica or any other company again. Pity.