georg Posted October 20, 2009 Share #21 Posted October 20, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) "I think that what really happened is they had far too few orders for the S2 so they quickly created the M9 as a quick and dirty product" That's very likely, because they had no orders for the S2 at all as the M9-development was started (April 2008 if I remember correctly)... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 Hi georg, Take a look here S2 delayed till December. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andreas_thomsen Posted October 20, 2009 Share #22 Posted October 20, 2009 as long as the big ones like calumet are not willing to list the s2 the orders will be minimal. i talked to a guy at calumet - clear answer. the S2 is not camera we will list in the next 3 years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted October 20, 2009 Share #23 Posted October 20, 2009 "I think that what really happened is they had far too few orders for the S2 so they quickly created the M9 as a quick and dirty product" That's very likely, because they had no orders for the S2 at all as the M9-development was started (April 2008 if I remember correctly)... But so many 'experts' here on the Forum say Leica is WAY to slow for quick product turn-around. When I first saw the article, I wondered how long it would take for the 'experts' to stand up and be counted. Leica probably got caught with any number of issues including bringing out too many products at once. That would include sport optics - the new high-tech Geovid Binoculars, Riflescopes, etc., as additional examples. The worse thing for them or any other is the global economy which will compress sales speculations, investment capital and the like. BTW, Calumet has never been known for competitive new equipment pricing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted October 20, 2009 Share #24 Posted October 20, 2009 Maybe it wasn't a clever psychological decision for us "internet-geeks" to present early prototypes already on Photokina 2008 - but it's an effective way to communicate the introduction of an entirely new system into an entirely different market. I don't know what really happens at Leica right now and made the decision to delay the introduction but none of us does and without the knowledge of necessary facts every kind of speculation is irresponsible. I don't even think that a delay of 2 months is even worth all the hassle!? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamey Posted October 20, 2009 Share #25 Posted October 20, 2009 Talking to one of Melbourne biggest Leica's dealer last week, Me.......When are you getting the S2! Salesperson....We're not getting it or stocking it. Some comments from last week's paper. Leica's latest trio will be the cause of much rejoicing It's a snap at $43,499 for the S2... Body only. The X1....Cheap at $2799. And the M9 has been reduced to under $10.000 all Australian Dollars. E100 slide film only cost me 18 dollars..wow. Ken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccis Posted October 21, 2009 Share #26 Posted October 21, 2009 Anyone thinking the S2 is vaporware should head to Photo Plus East in NYC as you'll be able to test drive the S2 on a studio shoot with a model (Thursday, October 22nd from noon-5 pm) Jack Studios 601 W 26th Street 12th Floor Between 11th and 12th Ave 212-367-7590 Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted October 21, 2009 Share #27 Posted October 21, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) A few prototypes built for marketing purposes does not make for a production camera. Leica shifting its S2 production line to M9 production speaks of a business minded board of directors saying you have a couple of months to go out and get enough orders to justify setting up production or we kill it. Fifty pre orders from rich amateurs doesn't cut it (last number published by anyone). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted October 21, 2009 Share #28 Posted October 21, 2009 A few prototypes built for marketing purposes does not make for a production camera. Leica shifting its S2 production line to M9 production speaks of a business minded board of directors saying you have a couple of months to go out and get enough orders to justify setting up production or we kill it. Fifty pre orders from rich amateurs doesn't cut it (last number published by anyone). The camera to be shown at PhotoPlus will be a full production S2 with final firmware. Attendees are encouraged to bring their own memory cards to keep (or publish online) their DNG files. This is not a prototype, or a null-series camera like the one I shot with in Germany in August. I'm not sure where this 50 orders rumor came from, but I can say for certain that this number is much, much lower than reality. BTW, if anyone is planning on attending the photo shoot in NYC, I'll see you there! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arminw Posted October 21, 2009 Share #29 Posted October 21, 2009 What really irritates me is that Leica announced a product 1 1/2 years before it actually gets delivered. How can one find trust and support when it's done in such a way ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted October 21, 2009 Share #30 Posted October 21, 2009 What really irritates me is that Leica announced a product 1 1/2 years before it actually gets delivered. How can one find trust and support when it's done in such a way ? In the past, Leica wouldn't say a thing, and in fact were very much - 'we'll tell you when we are ready', it used to be pure frustration getting answers. Now they are MUCH more open and communicative. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 21, 2009 Share #31 Posted October 21, 2009 Leica can't win. If the M9 is announced only one day (week in the US) before product starts to ship, recent M8.2 buyers feel bamboozled. If the S2 (and DMR) are announced 15 months before actual delivery, there are complaints. If the M8 ships a reasonable 2-3 weeks after announcement, it is "rushed". Of far more import - dpreview is topped today with TWO new complete digital MF cameras (back + body + lens) priced at $10,000 (Mamiya) and €8,000 (Leaf Aptus) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 22, 2009 Share #32 Posted October 22, 2009 ... If they don't see a business case to go forward, i.e. the costs to produce it (not R&D costs as these are lost opportunity costs) can't be justified based on projected sales then the company is better off never producing it. In pure industrial terms, You could be right... but should this happen, Leica Co. would see its reputation definitely destroyed: announcing, making hands-on stages, communicating on specs, on deliveries... then abandon the project, would be really too much bad. Luckily (or unluckily) for them, no competitor has yet decided to make a similar camera... someone else, in 18 months would have surely had the time to bring it to the market... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted October 22, 2009 Author Share #33 Posted October 22, 2009 Anyone thinking the S2 is vaporware should head to Photo Plus East in NYC as you'll be able to test drive the S2 on a studio shoot with a model (Thursday, October 22nd from noon-5 pm) Jack Studios 601 W 26th Street 12th Floor Between 11th and 12th Ave 212-367-7590 Cheers, What help all this nice and fancy studio shoots with even nicer model, if one cannot buy the camera or test it for himself in real world conditions. As long as I cannot go into the preferred Leica dealer store in my home country and take this camera for say half a day and do some shooting and testing without others hanging around me, this is still vapourware. REMEMBER, you can do these tests with Hasselblad and Phase ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 22, 2009 Share #34 Posted October 22, 2009 Of far more import - dpreview is topped today with TWO new complete digital MF cameras (back + body + lens) priced at $10,000 (Mamiya) and €8,000 (Leaf Aptus) Right: Leaf releases Aptus II 5 digital back: Digital Photography Review Mamiya DM22 & DM28 medium format cameras: Digital Photography Review The two offers have Leaf backs. The cameras are Mamiyas. Pentax will be the next in this game, with the 645D also priced below 10.000 euros (30Mp or so). And Canon will present the 1Ds Mark IV soon. The S2 is great camera, wonderful design and specifications, but the price is too high. The MF market only can survive if the prices go down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted October 22, 2009 Share #35 Posted October 22, 2009 We have the P40+/P65+ and the H4D-50/60 as current MFDBs. They're way slower, bigger, not weather-sealed and can compensate for that with larger sensors and modularity for certain applications. It's up to the photographers decision. But those "new" MFDBs are working in a different class, the 22MP-sensor is over 5 years old (base-sensitivity 25ASA) - maybe Leica should re-release old the M8, call them M10 and sell them for 3000$! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted October 22, 2009 Share #36 Posted October 22, 2009 Leica can't win. If the M9 is announced only one day (week in the US) before product starts to ship, recent M8.2 buyers feel bamboozled. If the S2 (and DMR) are announced 15 months before actual delivery, there are complaints. If the M8 ships a reasonable 2-3 weeks after announcement, it is "rushed". I agree with you, completely, Andy, Leica can't win. At least not if they go on like this: The M8 was shipped at the end of 2006, and we had a truly working camera with firmware issued in September 2008. The R10 was announced in September 2008 and cancelled in March 2009. The M9 was announced six months after S. Daniel had said there wouldn't be a full format M in the near future. (Upt to then they had kept saying it wasn't possible at all.) The M9 may have started shipping one day after announcement on September 9, but the waiting lists seem to be endless, if posts in this forum are any indication. The S2 was announced in September 2008 to ship in the summer of 2009. Shipping date was postponed first till October, now till December if not till January - all the while Hasselblad, Phase, Leaf and Mamiya have been busy reducing prices and bringing out new products. Reealy great way to keep existing customers happy and create new markets for future customers! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 22, 2009 Share #37 Posted October 22, 2009 Right - sometimes Leica can't win because the customers' expectations are all over the map (and you can't please all the people all of the time) - and sometimes because Leica can't get out of their own way. I had a truly working M8 by Dec. 2006 - in terms of usable, saleable pictures. Then it got even better as time and firmware and filters rolled on. I gather you felt only the 8.2 was the "truly working camera" - but I never felt the slightest urge to trade up from plain M8s, myself. Just not enough difference where it counted. I think S. Daniel's actual words were to the effect that "there were still a few issues to solve." The only time element he mentioned was "after S2 deliveries begin". Of course, Leica did "deliver" an S2 - to Seal - a couple of minutes before delivering any M9s. I think the M9/S2 delivery questions are complements - Leica has more or less fixed staffing, and may have decided to throw some (or all) of the S2 staff resources into making M9s when the demand soared. The original plan up through June (it appears) was to give the S2 priority - I would guess that once Rudy Spiller had been in place for a few weeks and really looked at the books and production capacity, he decided that that was not the best way to get income in the door quickly, and changed the plan. The M9 was going to be more profitable in the short run, per person-hour available. But I agree that Leica really needs a period of settling down, and thinking before they make comittments, Not always possible in turbulent seas, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 24, 2009 Share #38 Posted October 24, 2009 I had another look at the S2 on Thursday at the PhotoPlus Expo in NYC. They only had a pre-production model there but had two other working models at a nearby studio. They had sample images that looked very very good. I wish Leica all the best with this but the show gave me concern about MF and "pro" camera gear in general. As it has really declined over the past few years and now the show consists mostly of a few 35mm camera companies, album suppliers, and other things that appeal mostly to the wedding and portrait market. Hasselblad did not have a booth at all but had some reps and gear at the Foto Care booth. (Foto Care is a camera store in NYC.) Calumet, Sinar, Alpa, Linhof, Horseman, Seitz, HP Marketing, and some other pro suppliers that normally exhibited were not there. Leica had a fairly good size booth but I don't know if that is an indicator of their success. Phase One was there but I didn't see anyone from Capture Integration or other niche dealers like that. So my gut feeling is that pro photography is becoming a Canon and Nikon game with Sony trying to get a toehold. At least Leica has a loyal following for the M series and maybe this will transfer over to the S2 somewhat. I am coming more to the opinion that live view is the way to go for precise focusing with these hi res cameras and I bought a Zacuta loupe for my 5DII. I expect to shoot handheld this way at least for relatively static subjects. The big bright view through it makes the optical view seem very primitive. I see that Epson has some new technology that might make electronic viewfinder cameras more common. http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/10/16/epson.shows.047.inch.800x600.evf.panel/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10376791-1.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted October 24, 2009 Share #39 Posted October 24, 2009 Many of us were saying for some time that the resources that Leica was putting into the S2 should have gone into the M9 and possibly a CL like version. We were told that Leica management knew best and what did we know about running a camera company and on and on. Had they done that when they started on the S2 rather than what appears to be a hasty patch job we might have seen an M9 with much better and faster electronics (no repeat of many of the same issues seen on the M8) and maybe a step into the new sensor technologies that are now emerging. When you look at the high ISO image quality of the new Canon 1DS MK IV or the new Nikon with ISO at 104K looking better the 2500 on the M9 and 6400 looking better than 650 on the M9 you realize that sensor technology is advancing at a fast rate. Leica is still behind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted October 25, 2009 Share #40 Posted October 25, 2009 "When you look at the high ISO image quality of the new Canon 1DS MK IV or the new Nikon with ISO at 104K looking better the 2500 on the M9 and 6400 looking better than 650 on the M9" I'm waiting for a Leica-designed, ASIC-powered camera instead buying the M9 as a replacement for my M8, too - but don't create new internet myths about noise performance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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