lct Posted October 31, 2009 Share #121 Posted October 31, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) My favourite RF is the R-D1 that i've been using for 5 years now so i'm quite accustomed to crop cams of course but it does not alter the simple fact that FF is mandatory with fast wides, as far as Leica is concerned at least. How do you manage to use fast wides on bodies like M8 or R-D1? My usual wides are 21/2 and 28/2 with the 5D for instance. How could i get the same on a crop RF? Using a big 21/1.4 lens costing more than one or two cameras? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 31, 2009 Posted October 31, 2009 Hi lct, Take a look here Some M8 advantages. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Angelos Viskadourakis Posted October 31, 2009 Share #122 Posted October 31, 2009 My favourite RF is the R-D1 that i've been using for 5 years now so i'm quite accustomed to crop cams of course but it does not alter the simple fact that FF is mandatory with fast wides, as far as Leica is concerned at least. How do you manage to use fast wides on bodies like M8 or R-D1? My usual wides are 21/2 and 28/2 with the 5D for instance. How could i get the same on a crop RF? Using a big 21/1.4 lens costing more than one or two cameras? i support the needs of other photographers ,and as now we have a format choice life is more simplified. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 31, 2009 Share #123 Posted October 31, 2009 i support the needs of other photographers ,and as now we have a format choice life is more simplified. OK so for you the "M8 advantages" are the fact that we can use the M9 now, right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelos Viskadourakis Posted October 31, 2009 Share #124 Posted October 31, 2009 OK so for you the "M8 advantages" are the fact that we can use the M9 now, right? Is not for me to say what cameras other photographers are using,i have seen amazing images from horrific cameras and horrific images from the best cameras in the world. I'm saying though that sensor size is one factor for me to evaluate a camera body but not in the first 5 priorities for as long as there are adequate lenses of quality to cover the needed FOV's and sky high image quality reserves as is the case with M8 DNG files.. There will be always a better camera body to the one any photographer will have in hand ,is the technique and skills development that makes the actual diference,and very sorry EPSON R D1 cannot compare to M8 as is a completely different class overall. Of course upgrading from EPSON RD1 to a LEICA M9 will be a socking experience but is absolutely not for a skilled M8 photographer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharyngula Posted October 31, 2009 Share #125 Posted October 31, 2009 An M8 advantage for me, lets see......? Oh yes, that would be that I have only today picked up an M8.2 and have it in my hands. I have yet to post much in the forums but I have been around reading for some time - and learning a lot. Hopefully, I'll now have something more substantive to contribute. I might start with the reasons why I decided to go with the M8.2 instead of waiting for the M9. But, maybe I should shoot for a day or two first. Looking forward to a bit of a learning curve.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookedart Posted November 1, 2009 Share #126 Posted November 1, 2009 Here are the advantages, image-related and non-image related that I can tell of the digital M's... I'll try to stick to as much factual stuff as possible. M8 - 1/8000 sec Shutter advantageous for shooting wide open in sunlight without loss of DR - Available in Chrome Silver, not painted grey. - Long lenses become longer - This can also mean that much smaller lenses can possible be used.. i.e. the 50 summilux is a much smaller lens than a 75 summilux, just as a 35 is much smaller than a 50. This also means that the noctilux is now a portrait lens. - IR Response makes it possible to shoot into the IR spectrum - Better for IR and BW shooters - Battery and Frame Counter LCD - Smaller File Sizes - Price is lowest of all digital M's, especially second hand. - Fast Flash Sync Speed (1/250) Cons - Short range of Finder (32-37-46-66-100-120) - neither very wide nor very telephoto - Noisy Shutter - Perspex LCD Cover - Inaccurate framelines (.7m optimized) - Slippery Leather Covering - Requires UV/IR filters - means using an ND requires stacking filters, plus blue corners on wide angles, extra cost M8.2 Pros - Available in Chrome Silver - Long lenses become longer - IR Response - Battery and Frame Counter LCD - Smaller File Sizes - Snapshot Mode - Quieter Shutter - Vulcanite - Sapphire Glass - Revised Framelines Cons - Short range of Finder (32-37-46-66-100-120) - neither very wide nor very telephoto - Price over an m8 is questionable (to some). - Highest need for ND filters out of any digital M (no 1/8000, no pull 80) - Snapshot Mode stealing dial space - Requires UV/IR filters - means using an ND requires stacking filters, plus blue corners on wide angles, plus an extra cost M9 Pros - 18MP, Larger Sensor - Better ISO Performance (than an m8) - Pull 80 (but at a loss of DR) for wide open shooting in daylight - Bracketing - Wide assortment of framelines (28-35-50-75-90-135) - No need for 6-Bit Coding - Dial Exposure Compensation - No UV/IR filters required - Can turn off Self Timer - Brighter Screen - Soft Shutter Release Cons - Price - Larger lenses required for equivalent focal lengths compared to m8/8.2 - Perspex LCD Cover - Slippery Leather Covering - Grey-paint gun metal finish instead of true chrome For me, the advantage is skewed towards the m8, simply because cost is a huge factor to me. Also, though the m9 does have a larger range of focal lengths viewable in the finder, I personally prefer the lineup on the m8/8.2 35 Lux is smaller than a 50 Lux 50 Lux is smaller than 75 Lux (closest equivalent) There is no 90Lux, so the 75 Lux on the M8 is peerless There is no 135 Cron, so the 90 Cron on the m8 is peerless (closest equivalent) The disadvantages are in the wider focal lengths... 28 Cron has no m8 equivalent 24 Lux is much more expensive than 28 Cron or 35 Lux (and is larger than either) Since I'm more apt to using the longer focal lengths anyways, the m8 has the clear advantage to me. It's cheaper, and the lenses are smaller that I would actually use. Also, since I prefer my lenses longer, the Noctilux is now a short portrait lens instead of a normal, which I prefer, but that is just opinion (66mm on the m8 is my favorite focal length). This is of course ignoring the elmar, elmarit, and summarit lines, which I would not be apt to using personally. Maybe someone else can weigh in on these? Clearly, Leica has made three completely different cameras and people will prefer each one for good reasons. I just refuse to accept that the m9 is simply better in every way, for every person, and that everyone should switch to it as soon as we possibly can. Personally, I'm sticking with my m8 classic - unless they come out with an m8.3! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 1, 2009 Share #127 Posted November 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) First of all IMO the M9: - Benefits from full frame DoF - Uses M lenses at their full potential - Uses smaller and/or faster wides ...M9Pros - 18MP, Larger Sensor - Better ISO Performance (than an m8) - Pull 80 (but at a loss of DR) for wide open shooting in daylight - Bracketing - Wide assortment of framelines (28-35-50-75-90-135) - No need for 6-Bit Coding - Dial Exposure Compensation - No UV/IR filters required - Can turn off Self Timer - Brighter Screen - Soft Shutter Release ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 1, 2009 Share #128 Posted November 1, 2009 M8 pros: - available in black chrome M8-M8.2 cons: - No fast wides available besides 21/1.4 and not-that-wide 24/1.4 and 28/2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbgeach Posted November 1, 2009 Share #129 Posted November 1, 2009 wow great post. I agree completely Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookedart Posted November 1, 2009 Share #130 Posted November 1, 2009 First of all IMO the M9:- Benefits from full frame DoF - Uses M lenses at their full potential - Uses smaller and/or faster wides -The DOF issue makes sense, however, I recently saw a thread (forgot to save it) that confirmed that a 5D Mark II full frame Canon had 1 stop greater background blur with the same framing and aperture as a Cropped Canon 40D.. that is, The dof @ f/2.8 on the crop looked like f/4 on the full frame. However, the canon crop is 1.6x, the leica m8's is 1.3. This means at most you would get a half stop more background blur with the same framing on an m9 (since a 1.3 crop is roughly halfway between the 1.6 and FF). If the price differential of more than $3000 makes sense for a stop of noise performance and half a stop more background blur, then the m9 is your camera. If shallow DOF really means that much to you, however, you would be better to be shooting fast glass on Medium Format, since the sensor sizes are truly noticeably larger and you'd likely see a much larger benefit here. I find it hard to believe that many people need shallower DOF than the F/0.95 - F/1.2 range on the m8 (There are several lenses available within this range at different focal lenghts) - The DOF at these apertures is so shallow that focus accuracy starts to become a real issue. If you wanted shallower than this than your hit ratio would start to fall considerably. -I don't really see what your argument is with "using the lenses to their full potential" - The m9 you could say uses the entire diameter of the glass, however, might end up with lower edge to edge sharpness than the m8 is able to get, thanks to the m8 using the center most portion of the glass only. What exactly do you mean by "full potential"? -I completely see the utility if you are shooting wide glass, mainly the 28 or 35mm focal lengths since these are usable within the viewfinder. However, these are only 2 lenses that are smaller/faster/lighter than the m8 equivalents (if there is one)... on the m8 side, there are 4 lenses that I can think of that are smaller and lighter than the m9 equivalents in the mid to tele range (see my post above)... and this glass is the largest in the M lineup, so you really get to reap the benefits there. In my opinion, if Leica, Voigtlander, or Zeiss released a 28mm F/1.4 lens, then the argument would shift back in the m8's favor more clearly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 1, 2009 Share #131 Posted November 1, 2009 I use both crop and FF cameras. The difference is obvious to me. Using a 28 like a 28, not a 35 or 40, or a tiny 21/2.8 or 21/2, you know what i mean. MF and LF are another story. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicaiste Posted November 1, 2009 Share #132 Posted November 1, 2009 Priority now is to wait to see how the M8 photographers-and R photographers- will be treated by their choosen manufacturer and that will heavily influence many people decision to invest in a second M digital body for reasons greatly explained in this and many other threads in great depth. . Dear Angelos, Didn't you wrote this to me. Sorry Lucien but it will be very nice if only for once you were on subject. Lucien Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 1, 2009 Share #133 Posted November 1, 2009 ...very sorry EPSON R D1 cannot compare to M8 as is a completely different class overall... I happen to prefer the R-D1 by far but it's just me. Now what's the point with this topic if i may ask? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelos Viskadourakis Posted November 2, 2009 Share #134 Posted November 2, 2009 M8 pros: - available in black chrome M8-M8.2 cons: - No fast wides available besides 21/1.4 and not-that-wide 24/1.4 and 28/2 excellent post,great comment.Regarding DOF as a cinematographer is something i very deeply study the last 31 years.DOF in M8 is much shallower than the one we have when we shoot film in SUPER 35 format-the movies we see in the film theaters.DOF in M8 is very small for most of shooting using my M8's i never had problem with DOF. Clarify some things :wide angles 16-18-21-24 in M8 or M9 will have the SENSE of bigger DOF but starting from 28 -35-50 and so one the photographer can create a very shallow DOF if he needs by controlling his/her composition. As a fact bigger sensor has smaller DOF for the same FOV at the same aperture but for those they need paper thin DOF i recommend much big sensors to really enjoy it. I have really shallow DOF even with DLUX 4 if i need so but is so rare occasion that i dont bother,most of the time i need a little bigger DOF to secure that all the moving action elements will be in focus.DOF talk between M8 & M9 is very far from any serious photography talk. Just reverse the thought ,when we need an adequate DOF with M9 given low light conditions we will raise the iso and we will create more noise ,even more at the periphery of the image. If M9 is offering -hopefully- something even little better compared to M8 that is not related to DOF for 99,99999999999% of M photographers. bellow M8 with 35 asph shot on f 4.5 at 320 iso. second below Voigtlander Ultron 28 at f4 M8 640 iso Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/100560-some-m8-advantages/?do=findComment&comment=1099456'>More sharing options...
lct Posted November 2, 2009 Share #135 Posted November 2, 2009 ...DOF talk between M8 & M9 is very far from any serious photography talk... Shallower DoF of FF vs crop cams is a fact. We may like it, hate it or whatever subjective opinion we may have but a fact is a fact. This thread relates to comparisons between M8 & M9. Ommitting DoF is unfair because untrue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelos Viskadourakis Posted November 2, 2009 Share #136 Posted November 2, 2009 Shallower DoF of FF vs crop cams is a fact. We may like it, hate it or whatever subjective opinion we may have but a fact is a fact. This thread relates to comparisons between M8 & M9. Ommitting DoF is unfair because untrue.[/quote What is untrue????] Yes is a fact and i explain some facts related for evaluation on my post above with photos to explain my thoughts,in most photo sessions that i had encounter we need much more often a little more DOF and less often less DOF.So that is an advantage for M8 -just for those they need it,as of now we have a choice of two sensor sizes,as long as the M8 ,M8.2 stocks last. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookedart Posted November 2, 2009 Share #137 Posted November 2, 2009 Shallower DoF of FF vs crop cams is a fact. We may like it, hate it or whatever subjective opinion we may have but a fact is a fact. This thread relates to comparisons between M8 & M9. Ommitting DoF is unfair because untrue. It is indeed a fact however I believe it is definitely worth considering very hard whether or not the gain in DOF is worth the cost of entry. M8's can be had for $2000-$2500. An M9 goes for $7000. That is at a completely different price point. It is definitely enough of a difference for me to question very hard what you are getting for that extra cost. To me, it seems the main advantages like half a stop shallower DOF, and a stop better noise, with respect to image quality. The other enhancements are nice, but I think are secondary to most arguments of proponents of the m9 (Bracketing, Dial Exposure Comp, No Need for UV/IR, Manual Lens detection are the biggest in my mind). As a package, I still think overall the m9 is a hard sell. At that price, I would get more for my money investing in a Medium Format system, or as I've said before, an M8 with some very good glass. I suppose the choice is easier if you already have Leica glass, but if you don't and are considering the m9 as your first M, that will easily cost you over 10K with only one lens. I'm not saying that the m9 is a bad camera. Overall it is probably a better camera than an m8 or an m8.2, and probably the camera most leica users would have liked from the beginning. But now that we have the choice between three different M models, all of which have different price points, pros, and cons, I think those advantages need to be carefully considered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookedart Posted November 2, 2009 Share #138 Posted November 2, 2009 M8 pros: - available in black chrome M8-M8.2 cons: - No fast wides available besides 21/1.4 and not-that-wide 24/1.4 and 28/2 - I wasn't aware that the m8's black version was any different than the m8.2 or m9 - can you elaborate? - As far as I can tell, the equivalent lens that the m8 cannot do is the 28mm cron, at least, in the finder, anyways. The m9 has one more usable focal length in that regard. The 21 1.4 is actually the 28 equivalent, but since needs a separate finder to focus and frame, can be tricky, especially at that focal length. If this is where most of your shooting lies, then it's hard to recommend the m8/8.2. I was under the impression, however, that the most popular M focal lengths were the 35 and 50, which is more than covered. "No fast wides", however, isn't strictly true. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookedart Posted November 2, 2009 Share #139 Posted November 2, 2009 For example, as a journalist, I carried a 35 mm Summilux to achieve a combination of speed and aperture that would suit most tasks. With the M8, my 35 mm equivalent lens is two stops slower. I carried the Noctilux in order to have the extra available-light capability in extremis. I used to dream of having a 35 mm Noctilux, but I have no operational role for a 70 mm Noctilux. Similarly, I carried a 21 mm Super Angulon in order to have the extra angular coverage. Now the widest angular coverage I have is only that of a 28 mm. On the plus side, I’m finding a 70 mm equivalent a useful travel lens, while the ‘stretching’ caused by the crop factor has made my rarely-used 90 mm a very useful c.120 mm travel lens. - the 28 Cron is only one stop slower than the 35 lux. I agree, however, that it would nice to have a 28 lux in leica's lineup. - You stated that you have no operational role for a 70mm noctilux, but also that 70mm is a useful travel lens - in my opinion that makes the noctilux a perfect travel lens for any situation - I could probably get away with bringing a noctilux and one wide to supplement it (the 21 or 24 lux seems perfect in this situation), and have a super low light travel setup. Do you disagree? - There are wider than 28mm lenses available for the m8. The 18mm Super Elmar and the WATE both come in wider than 28mm. Voigtlander has 12 and 15mm lenses, Zeiss has 15 and 18mm lenses. I imagine that the 18mm super elmar would be the closest to the super angulon on the m8 (aperture wise). The voigtlander 15mm heliar would be the closest focal length wise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookedart Posted November 2, 2009 Share #140 Posted November 2, 2009 Also, the M9 still has no flash sync socket, and also retains that stupid base plate - which further adds to my disinclination to upgrade. I use my Leica M8 for studio work with flash, and I often need to change batteries - which means gingerly removing the camera so as not to disturb the tripod it's mounted on. Both f these faults could be addressed very easily without compromising the Leica M form factor whatsoever. Style over function ... sheesh! Have you seen this before? M It is expensive to say the least (for what it is), But provided that your tripod head is small enough to clear the battery door, this would solve your problem, and wouldn't be too harsh of a cost if you are in this situation often enough for it to affect your work. When I'm in situations like that I always mark my tripod and, if necessary, hot glue it down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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