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Do you get better pictures from your M9 than you did from your M8?

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wlaidlaw

wlaidlaw

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I think that cropping flexibility will be one of the major advantages in the M9. Given that I have been printing uncropped M8 images as big as 90cm x 60cm with reasonable results, albeit up-rezzed with the Epson professional rip engine, I am not expecting to see a huge increase in quality in my regular print size of A3+ with uncropped M9 pics. I can feel an A2 printer calling to me, especially as my HP B9180 has died. I am also really looking forward to using the WATE at its full potential. Roll on Thursday when my M9 is projected to arrive.

 

Wilson

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Guest BigSplash

Guest BigSplash

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I tend to agree that the M9 photos that I have seen suggest something just a little less than perfect:

  • Magenta tint (albeit slight) does seem to creep into blacks
  • IR issue is obviously much improved compared to M8 but it seems to me is NOT as good as a M8 with the filters fitted
  • Skin tones do look a little too redish compared to M8 images I have seen (comparison is difficult of course if subjects change)
  • Otherwise excellent picture quality as one might expect from a Leica...but then so is the M8, where the colour shifts have been fixed 2 years ago, and plug ins have been honed to near perfect.

Brett showed me some fabulous A2 ( I think) huge prints he had made which retained the detail of distant electricity overhead wires, and likewise the detailed texture of a rustic roof was unbelievable.....However I felt that the M8 could achieve this also, and Brett thought that I may be correct. (ie Not proven)

 

It seems to me that the colouring issue will most likely eventually be fixed with a decent plug in for the software and reading the various threads several people here are looking at trying to fix this themselves ...I just wish Adobe would!

 

Given the above I continue to wonder why I would buy the M9....from an image quality point of view at least.

 

I can see that 18mm lenses are actually 18mm (ie not cropped) argument and that is powerful point.

 

However in my view I believe very firmly at some point M10 or M9+ will appear that takes the camera to the next level and fixes the niggles.My guess is October 2010, but maybe 2011...and meanwhile I lose one focal length size and I am forced to work in a cropped way with my M8 which maybe good practise anyway. I can even use film on my M6 if I wanted to during the next year or so.

 

On the other hand I am already seeing that FF means huge file sizes when using RAW (DNG) uncompressed. In my view today's camera electronics (M9 & M8) are at the limit fo performance.

It is also my opinion that PC's plus post software is not totally good news in my case at least and I am planning to upgrade. I actually believe that increasingly the battle for the ultimate image will be in post production. and that means very large HDD, quad processors with cache on chip, fast bus structures ..plus software that can fully exploit. ...Oh! and a calibrated large size monitor. ...which is aligned to a professional grade printer.

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Guest BigSplash

Guest BigSplash

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Who do you work for again Frank? Standards like those suggest National Geographic or Vogue.

 

BTW, the M9 produces images that are quite small, in professional terms.

 

Actually I am an amateur however thanks for the compliment ...I think?

 

My desire is simply to produce high quality images within the constraint of 35mm...and anyone who reads this Forum and/or owns a Leica is probably of the same mind. If you or others are happy with reddish skin tones, magenta tint on black, and IR issues worse than with the M8 (with fiters fitted) that is great, I wish you well.

 

In my case I want to up my game not lower it from the M8 I have now that does not seem to have the defects above.

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erl

erl

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Actually I am an amateur however thanks for the compliment ...I think?

 

My desire is simply to produce high quality images within the constraint of 35mm...and anyone who reads this Forum and/or owns a Leica is probably of the same mind. If you or others are happy with reddish skin tones, magenta tint on black, and IR issues worse than with the M8 (with fiters fitted) that is great, I wish you well.

 

In my case I want to up my game not lower it from the M8 I have now that does not seem to have the defects above.

 

Bigsplash, you have to realize that the M9 is a new product, freshly born and as yet unproven to any extent, despite the very promising impressions so far. Clearly you have assumed otherwise based on internet observations which is a most unreliable source if taken in isolation, which you seem to have done.

 

You have, apparently , made no allowance for possible poor processing by posters, lack of truly final firmware that is clearly not yet up to scratch. The reddish skin tones you complain of can be and are explained by a multiplicity of causes, least of which is the M9. Frankly I suspect an M9 would be wasted on you as your attitude and expectations would get in the way of utilizing its potential. Stick with the M8 you have as it is truly a great camera and capable of achieving all you seem to expect.

 

The only shortcoming the M8 has for your expectation is that it is sub 35mm, which the M9 achieves.

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Guest BigSplash

Guest BigSplash

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Bigsplash, you have to realize that the M9 is a new product, freshly born and as yet unproven to any extent, despite the very promising impressions so far. Clearly you have assumed otherwise based on internet observations which is a most unreliable source if taken in isolation, which you seem to have done.

 

You have, apparently , made no allowance for possible poor processing by posters, lack of truly final firmware that is clearly not yet up to scratch. The reddish skin tones you complain of can be and are explained by a multiplicity of causes, least of which is the M9. Frankly I suspect an M9 would be wasted on you as your attitude and expectations would get in the way of utilizing its potential. Stick with the M8 you have as it is truly a great camera and capable of achieving all you seem to expect.

 

The only shortcoming the M8 has for your expectation is that it is sub 35mm, which the M9 achieves.

 

Erl, I agree that the M9 is a great camera, and also that it is new and that the various items I list and other people have seen will eventually get sorted to a level that the M8 is already at. I have seen excellent photos printed with M9 at Leica Mayfair and mentioned this. That said I believe that there are some fundamentals at play when one compares the M9 and M8 :

  • The sensor technology is the same (OK one is larger)
  • The firmware and camera electronics are basically the same ( larger buffer size on M9....but they have not used the Fujitsu chipset of the S2 for example).
  • The price is much higher ....and for what?

On that basis I agree with you the M9 would be wasted on me and I shall remain with the M8 as it is a great camera.

 

There are things that going forward that I am sure Leica will improve on within the M9 and I await that camera. I am not sure you will want them as judging from your attitude it seems (as others have said before you) that the M9 is the ultimate and will be the last ever Leica M.....However I simply do not agree with that viewpoint.

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erl

erl

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snipped:

I am not sure you will want them as judging from your attitude it seems (as others have said before you) that the M9 is the ultimate and will be the last ever Leica M.....However I simply do not agree with that viewpoint.

 

Quite the contrary. I have never, nor ever would, say such a patently dumb thing. Can't answer for the "others" you refer to. I am confident successors to the M9 will come and be better, but I am about 'now' because my future is finite.

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Rick

Rick

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I have to say that I agree with Wilfedo. I am so unimpressed with the magenta cast in most of the photos I've seen posted on this forum with the M9. White skin tones and other magenta problems really look bad. I think it is a LR preset problem because Guy seems to have posted the best looking photos over on his sight and he uses C1.

 

I sure hope this is worked out before I get my M9 or I will be using U/V filters on my M9 and building my own presets!

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erl

erl

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I have to say that I agree with Wilfedo. I am so unimpressed with the magenta cast in most of the photos I've seen posted on this forum with the M9. White skin tones and other magenta problems really look bad. I think it is a LR preset problem because Guy seems to have posted the best looking photos over on his sight and he uses C1.

 

I sure hope this is worked out before I get my M9 or I will be using U/V filters on my M9 and building my own presets!

 

RickLeica, I presume you meant IR cut filters! However, I don't think they will address the problem I assume you refer to. The magenta pink I believe is simply the absence (currently) of a correct profile in any software. C1 does seem to be superior at present but expect to do your own tweaking for the time being. I don't see it as a serious problem. ie. it will be solved.

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Rick

Rick

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Right, I/R filters. Yeah, I know the profiles really look like the problem. I battled with this on the M8 for a while until I got a profile I liked. Not sure why it isn't noticed by people posting pictures. They lead us to believe that they should know better, but they still post magenta skin tones.

 

I have downloaded files from the M9 and it can be dealt with.

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Guest BigSplash

Guest BigSplash

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RickLeica, I presume you meant IR cut filters! However, I don't think they will address the problem I assume you refer to. The magenta pink I believe is simply the absence (currently) of a correct profile in any software. C1 does seem to be superior at present but expect to do your own tweaking for the time being. I don't see it as a serious problem. ie. it will be solved.

 

It seems odd that Leica released the M9 some six weeks ago, and they have been field testing it since several months .....How can it be that the software plug ins (profiles) are not already available and at a state of usage that magenta casts do not happen?

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Jager

Jager

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It seems odd that Leica released the M9 some six weeks ago, and they have been field testing it since several months .....How can it be that the software plug ins (profiles) are not already available and at a state of usage that magenta casts do not happen?

 

Well, perhaps because the software development of those plug-ins is not within Leica's control. It is up to Adobe to release the Lightroom plug-in (Phase One has already released the C1 profile for the M9 - ergo the superior results at present in that product).

 

To give some context, it took Adobe well over a year to release Universal binaries for Photoshop for the Mac after Apple moved to Intel. Likewise Microsoft to update their Office Suite for the Mac.

 

Yes, I recognize that the code bases for those products were much larger than a "simple M9 plug-in", but my point is simply that companies move to their own product roadmaps and timelines, not to those of Apple (in my examples) or Leica.

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Leicaiste

Leicaiste

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Do any of you who have upgraded from an M8 to an M9 honestly believe that you will produce better photographs with an M9 than you did with your M8?

 

No, the quality is more or less the same, but I have never really enjoyed using the M8 like I did with the M6 and MP.

 

Now the fun is back, and I hope it will show soon in my pictures.

 

:)

 

It is maybe difficult to understand for those for whom the M8 was their first M.

 

Lucien

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wilfredo

wilfredo

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RE Pink skin: Well, which skin? The bearded wedding guest was sunburned and very red in real life.

 

Likely because until all the DNG developers get an M9 update, we're dependent on the "embedded" profile (with some room for tweakage). Also, I have not yet created a separate profile in ACR for tungsten light - white-balancing for tungsten will always push reds to pink (because of the added blue tint) unless a separate profile is created for tungsten use to change the red hue/saturation settings.

 

The M8 had exactly the same problem (magnified by the IR issue) in its early months until good profiles had been created.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/33986-m8-adobe-lightroom-profiles.html

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/42586-m8-red-color-rendition-lightroom-wrong.html

 

Nice thing about RAW, though, is that once profiles are created, the pix can be "redeveloped"

 

It could, of course, also just be my taste in processing. "White" skin is mango-smoothy in color unless the subject is 2 days dead, IMHO. Hey, I LIKED Velvia skin tones!!

 

 

Andy,

 

I see a slight magenta cast on the brooms face and the attractive caucasian woman sitting toward the front of the boat. In its haste to dump the use of the IR/UV filters, I suspect Leica missed something. I'll leave this to the techies to figure out.

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Guest BigSplash

Guest BigSplash

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Well, perhaps because the software development of those plug-ins is not within Leica's control. It is up to Adobe to release the Lightroom plug-in (Phase One has already released the C1 profile for the M9 - ergo the superior results at present in that product).

 

To give some context, it took Adobe well over a year to release Universal binaries for Photoshop for the Mac after Apple moved to Intel. Likewise Microsoft to update their Office Suite for the Mac.

 

Yes, I recognize that the code bases for those products were much larger than a "simple M9 plug-in", but my point is simply that companies move to their own product roadmaps and timelines, not to those of Apple (in my examples) or Leica.

 

I understand the above very well. The consequence is that Canon and Nikon product will be preferenced before Leica due to camera volumes.

 

That said Leica moved from Phase One to Adobe and they today provide a copy of Lightroom with the M9 ( complete with a flawed plugin !). ...worse there does not seem to be a release date for the plug in.

 

In short the OP asked "Do you get better pictures from your M9 than you did with the M8?"

Answer ...Obviously not currently!

The good news is that images stored as RAW can be fixed at some future date when the plug ins are available.

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