Monochrom filter discussion

[jaapv]

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I can confirm that Caucasian skin tones may be more difficult than a B&W conversion, but the skin tones that gave me trouble on the M9 i.e. African ones, are much easier in my experience.

Thanks Thorsten. Very thorough and interesting!

 

I'm sorry (and hesitant) to say it, but all the skin tones look too dark and similar to me, even in shots where it's clear the light is great. It's an interesting effect in a few areas, but mostly it's not "right" to my eyes, and dulls the overall impact of the pictures.

 

I understand that I'm assuming stuff about capture conditions. I'm also sure coloured filters would help in different situations.

 

But overall, the reds, yellows and oranges just seem off (as you point out: too dark). However, the fact that the files are so similar to a desaturated M9 under controlled conditions is also a bit disturbing to me (since I'd never make a BW of a person that way).

 

Just my 2 cents. If other folks like 'em, go for it. YMMV.

[Jamie Roberts]

I can confirm that Caucasian skin tones may be more difficult than a B&W conversion, but the skin tones that gave me trouble on the M9 i.e. African ones, are much easier in my experience.

 

Interesting. And my follow-on question would be in what specific way were they difficult for you with the M9 and your BW conversion. IOW, what were you doing with the colour channels and in what way did you find them difficult to convert to BW?

 

I've found African skin tones can often clip a colour sensor in the upper quartertone; maybe the MM's colour signature prevents that and natively preserves more gradations?

[jaapv]

My problem with the M9 was that the blacks tended to block up and highlights were too prominent. In other words too contrasty. On the M with a mid-yellow filter I found more greytones and better nuances.

[Peter Branch]

My problem with the M9 was that the blacks tended to block up and highlights were too prominent. In other words too contrasty. On the M with a mid-yellow filter I found more greytones and better nuances.

 

I think that is a general experience. With B&W film colour filters were almost essential in many circumstances. A yellow, of better still a yellow/green, for each lens was part of every serious photographers kit.

 

I can't think of any reason why it should be different with the M Monochrom.

[Jamie Roberts]

I think that is a general experience. With B&W film colour filters were almost essential in many circumstances. A yellow, of better still a yellow/green, for each lens was part of every serious photographers kit.

 

I can't think of any reason why it should be different with the M Monochrom.

 

I can think of many, actually. But we'll leave it for now

[Jamie Roberts]

My problem with the M9 was that the blacks tended to block up and highlights were too prominent. In other words too contrasty. On the M with a mid-yellow filter I found more greytones and better nuances.

 

Interesting, and fits with my experience with that kind of skin--careful lighting and exposure is really important.

 

My problem is that I would still want the upper quartertone response (and post-capture colour manipulation) I get from the M9, but I totally understand how the shadows would get crushed. With the M9 you have to add or subtract light; with the MM it looks like filtering is a must.

[Peter H]

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I can think of many, actually. But we'll leave it for now

 

Please continue.

 

I'm not the world's most experienced B&W photographer, having preferred colour for most of my life, but I'm now seriously considering an MM as a serious exercise/experiment in looking at things differently, so I like to learn from the knowledge of others.

 

 

And Thorsten, thank you very much for your thoughts. Much appreciated, as always.

[Jamie Roberts]

Please continue.

 

I'm not the world's most experienced B&W photographer, having preferred colour for most of my life, but I'm now seriously considering an MM as a serious exercise/experiment in looking at things differently, so I like to learn from the knowledge of others.

 

 

And Thorsten, thank you very much for your thoughts. Much appreciated, as always.

 

Well, briefly, it's a fundamentally different medium from BW film. So while you may have to filter, you are not going to do it in the same way as with BW film.

 

For example, there's the overall point that the monochrome response of the MM under controlled conditions is just about the same as a desaturated M9 (according to Thorsten's observations). Which means, essentially, that the MM has a different colour signature than most films, which were often overly blue sensitive (hence the yellow filter).

 

Instead, under some conditions at least (and IMO in almost every shot I've seen to date), the MM seems to be very red sensitive, which has a direct effect on skin. (which means a green filter would make matters much, much worse (since complements darken subject colours)).

 

Which means, yes, you have to filter and account for light (and probably light temperature!). But you won't be doing it the way you would on most BW films. I think with an MM, I'd have a red filter glued to the front

 

I don't want to deter you from a purchase (since I want Leica to be successful in getting me follow on Ms ) but, since you say you don't have a lot of experience with BW, why not gain some first?

 

Get a BW film camera or, even easier, do some in-depth research in how you can change a colour digital file into a really compelling BW. Given great light, composition and moment, success will then boil down to the tonality of the image, or the way in which colour is rendered into grays.

 

If you become familiar with how this colour manipulation and rendering works, then the MM will still be waiting for you, and you're going to be able to get better results, because the filtering work is essentially the same; you just do it differently with a colour digital (after the capture) than you would with the MM (with a glass filter).

[Peter H]

Thanks Jamie, that makes a lot of sense to me, and accords with my limited and un-analytical experience.

 

I've used, developed and printed B&W film for many years now, but only sporadically and rather unscientifically, and I've learned more from converting digital files than I ever did in the darkroom, due to my lack of patience probably. But I do feel that I'd like to understand the relationships between film and digital files better.

 

Thanks for your helpful thoughts.

[jaapv]

Filter use on the MM is a fascinating and not too simple journey -I can really recommend it.

I started out with "naked" lenses, to have a base reference, then I used mid-yellow. I general liked the tonal response better but the effect was nowhere near as pronounced as on film. Now I am using Orange filters on low contrast lenses (mainly because I stumbled upon a pristine Canon 35/2.8 and 50/1.8 quite recently) and I am more than happy with the result, so much so that my Summilux 50 asph has been banned to the M9 for the time being. The reds are still waiting for summer...Mind you, these are general filtering ideas, different subjects might need different filters. For instance for the black skin we just discussed I would switch back to yellow, albeit on my Canon 50 (note to self, call Michael Huppert...) And I am only on the lower slope of the learning curve. I might start a thread where we can share experiences, but I lack light in this season .

[Peter Branch]

(......Instead, under some conditions at least (and IMO in almost every shot I've seen to date), the MM seems to be very red sensitive, which has a direct effect on skin. (which means a green filter would make matters much, much worse (since complements darken subject colours))........).

 

I have no idea which are the most appropriate colour filters with the MM in various situation. But colour filters are going to be making a come back with this camera.

 

Kodak's Tech Pan film had enhanced red sensitivity which caused problems with skin tones because the blood vessel structure was revealed. Indeed this was exploited for medical purposes. The recommendation was to use a yellow-green filter with caucasian flesh tones. I know from experience, particularly when the subject was lit by artificial light, that this gave a marked improvement in normal photography.

 

It may be the MM is different - but I can't see how.

[jaapv]

The MM appears to have a - reduced versus the M8, but still noticeable - sensitivity in deep red and near-IR, (film doesn't) and as haemoglobin is strongly reflective in that colour band the MM will certainly respond differently to veins etc. on Caucasian skin. A yellow or yellow-green filter(are they still on the market?) might not be a good idea.

On a sidenote, far IR appears to be suppressed quite effectively.

 

Edit - a Cyan filter is the filter of choice on the Tech-Pan. From the Kodak spec sheet:

 

Technical Pan Film has reasonably uniform spectral sensitivity at all visible wavelengths out to 690 nanometres (nm). Because of this extended red sensitivity, red areas and flesh tones may appear lighter than they would with conventional black-and-white films. This is often an advantage. For example, it helps conceal some skin blemishes and often adds a pleasing luminous quality to skin tones. (This effect is less evident in portraits made in the shade outdoors, because there is less red light present.)

To approximate the response of conventional panchromatic films more closely, make exposures through a color-compensating filter such as a KODAK Color Compensating Filter CC40C or CC50C (cyan). With this filter, no exposure compensation is necessary; however, there may be a slight loss in sharpness.

 

Note that 690 nm is well shy of the end of the IR spectrum which runs from 750 nm to 1 mm

[coup de foudre]

Which means, yes, you have to filter and account for light (and probably light temperature!). But you won't be doing it the way you would on most BW films. I think with an MM, I'd have a red filter glued to the front

as your C1 profile for the M8 (the low contrast one) has been somewhat of a touchstone for me on the M8/M9 destined for b/w conversion, i will listen to your advice and play with the red (which i only have currently for my older lenses) filter as skin tone is of ultimate importance and i've found it a bit sludgy on the Monochrom.

 

don't have much light, like Jaap (a country away), just a whole lot of grey. still, i don't mind bumping the ISO on the Monochrom.

 

(thank you for steering me away from the green, a holdover from film, which was to be my next experiment.)

[Guest borge]

I think with an MM, I'd have a red filter glued to the front

 

Really? I find that a red filter was a bit extreme on the MM. A regular red that is. A deep red is way over the top for general use. Personally I found that a yellow-orange (B+W) worked very nice, and the yellow was ok as well but it didn't add that much difference.

 

I wouldn't consider using a red filter for most purposes on my MM at least. It's too much.

[jaapv]

I'm getting into the mountains in a couple of weeks. Red might do well on snow-blue sky. Trying it out will not hurt

[Guest borge]

I'm getting into the mountains in a couple of weeks. Red might do well on snow-blue sky. Trying it out will not hurt

 

The red filter is great is certain circumstances, but as a generic filter and for people / skin tones it is too much for me. I'm using only a Summilux 50 ASPH though, which is quite contrasty. So a red filter might work better with a low contrast lens for all purpose use.

 

On the Lux ASPH I found that the yellow/orange filter was quite nice for most types of use.

[Bill W]

With the introduction of the MM, I am curious if some filter manufacturers specifically B+W will consider producing some of the filters they discontinued due to lack of sales. Just a thought.

[hoppyman]

The January LFI has two useful articles by forum member Michael Hussmann. One includes a filter discussion.

[michali]

Really? I find that a red filter was a bit extreme on the MM. A regular red that is. A deep red is way over the top for general use. Personally I found that a yellow-orange (B+W) worked very nice, and the yellow was ok as well but it didn't add that much difference.

 

I wouldn't consider using a red filter for most purposes on my MM at least. It's too much.

 

This has been my experience as well with yellow filters on the MM.

I might try yellow-orange next. At the moment I'm shooting with no filters and still getting great results.

 

Speaking of filters on the MM, I have a trip to Africa coming up next month and am planning on taking an ND filter for each lens. I'm waiting for some sunshine here in the south of France to play around- hopefully later today.

 

Anyone have any comments on the use of ND filters on the MM?

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Hallo,

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[menos I M6]

I don't use red filters on the MM, whenever light skinned people are in the frame - it makes them look like zombie plastic mannequins.

 

I use everything from no filter to medium Yellow filters so far, depending on lenses and the weather.