geesbert Posted October 19, 2009 Share #1 Posted October 19, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Has anyone tried this combo? I am intrigued by mating leica's oldest with the newest... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 19, 2009 Posted October 19, 2009 Hi geesbert, Take a look here screwmount elmar 50mm with the M9. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
michali Posted October 19, 2009 Share #2 Posted October 19, 2009 Yes I tried it the other day, obviously being extra careful not to collapse the lens into the camera. My almost mint 1939 50mm Elmar: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Here's a 100% crop of the image taken straight off the camera, no post processing other than conversion from DNG to Jpeg. M9 & 50mm Elmar 1939 vers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Here's a 100% crop of the image taken straight off the camera, no post processing other than conversion from DNG to Jpeg. M9 & 50mm Elmar 1939 vers. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/100727-screwmount-elmar-50mm-with-the-m9/?do=findComment&comment=1081656'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 20, 2009 Share #3 Posted October 20, 2009 Seeing a glorious Elmar onto a M9 is always a pleasure... btw, Michali, you can collapse it safe on M9... this was even officially declared by Stefan Daniel who said that, differently from M8, you can do this for all collapsibles, with the only excpetion of Elmar 90 (the old, of course, not the present Macro). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k_g_wolf ✝ Posted October 20, 2009 Share #4 Posted October 20, 2009 If O. B. would be able to see this, he would be most delighted. Great photo, thx for sharing. Best Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brill64 Posted October 20, 2009 Share #5 Posted October 20, 2009 hey michali, can we see the full, uncropped version of that file with that lens? what aperture did you use and can we see one at 3.4 if you have time? thanks! amazingly rare to see a near mint model Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 20, 2009 Share #6 Posted October 20, 2009 Seeing a glorious Elmar onto a M9 is always a pleasure... btw, Michali, you can collapse it safe on M9... this was even officially declared by Stefan Daniel who said that, differently from M8, you can do this for all collapsibles, with the only excpetion of Elmar 90 (the old, of course, not the present Macro). Please do not try and collapse a 50 f2 Summitar LTM on any M. I measured mine and it will definitely hit the shutter or on film M's, the shutter shrouds. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 20, 2009 Share #7 Posted October 20, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Please do not try and collapse a 50 f2 Summitar LTM on any M. I measured mine and it will definitely hit the shutter or on film M's, the shutter shrouds. Wilson Really ? I SEEM to remember to have collapsed it with no problem on my M4... do not remember to have "felt" something strange... but I did not look at the shutter curtains opening the back. Well, I'll try again just for curios... I have a very old and worn M2, almost unusable for shutter times are very out of tolerance: ideal for such a test. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 20, 2009 Share #8 Posted October 20, 2009 Really ? I SEEM to remember to have collapsed it with no problem on my M4... do not remember to have "felt" something strange... but I did not look at the shutter curtains opening the back. Well, I'll try again just for curios... I have a very old and worn M2, almost unusable for shutter times are very out of tolerance: ideal for such a test. Luigi, I think you will find a curved mark on the black flock covered shrouds at the top and bottom of the curtains on your film M if you try to fully collapse the 50 Summitar, with the focus at infinity. I did just this on my M4. After this experience I then measured the amount the lens projected behind the mount and then the clearance to the M8 shutter and came up with a zero clearance, so I never risked it. The final version of the lovely 50 Elmar (I wish I had not sold mine for the little I got for it) has just over 1mm clearance to the M8 shutter, when collapsed. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell Posted October 20, 2009 Share #9 Posted October 20, 2009 Is there a link to Stefan's quote that we can safely collapse the old LTM lenses? Maybe he was talking about M collapsibles only? FWIW, I've collapsed a Summar and Elmar into my M8 with no problems. The Elmar is sweet and will be even more so without the need for a UV/IR filter. Get's close to pocketable. Hard to beat that unless they came out with a new Elmar. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 20, 2009 Share #10 Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) Please do not try and collapse a 50 f2 Summitar LTM on any M. I measured mine and it will definitely hit the shutter or on film M's, the shutter shrouds. Wilson This puzzled me, as the Summitar like all other cllapsible lenses was made to collapse without problem in screw-mount Leicas and for a M you should get a bigger distance, as you have to add 1mm for anadapter. So I tried to measure: 2,57 cm should be the closest you could intrude into a screw-mount Leica and a M3 without touching the shutter - but this would be very close! Certainly TOO (!) close for the M8 for the distance is shorter - the shutter would be touched and damaged! On the following pictures you see this risky or even damaging distance in comparison with fully collapsed lenses at infinity position: 1. left Summitar (1. version pre-war); right 5cm Elmar ("red scale", screw-mount) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2. left same Summitar; right 5cm Summicron (1. version, screw-mount) 3. left 3.5/5cm Elmar (M-Mount); right 2.8/5cm Elmar (M-Mount, 1. version) 4. left 2.8/50 Elmar (last version); right Summitar again My conclusion is: the Summitar does not collapse more into the body than any of the Elmars, though it is longer than the Summicron (this applies only to the pre-war first version of the Summitar; I hope I am able to see if there are differences with the last version soon). The 50mm-Elmar, last version, is safe to collapse in the M8. It's collapsed tube measures about 2,11 cm from the flange. With any collapsable lens shorter than this there should be no problem with the M8. As long as the distance to the M 9's shutter is not shorter, this should apply also for the M9. Though it's always safer not to collapse a lens; especially when you mount it! Edited October 20, 2009 by UliWer Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2. left same Summitar; right 5cm Summicron (1. version, screw-mount) 3. left 3.5/5cm Elmar (M-Mount); right 2.8/5cm Elmar (M-Mount, 1. version) 4. left 2.8/50 Elmar (last version); right Summitar again My conclusion is: the Summitar does not collapse more into the body than any of the Elmars, though it is longer than the Summicron (this applies only to the pre-war first version of the Summitar; I hope I am able to see if there are differences with the last version soon). The 50mm-Elmar, last version, is safe to collapse in the M8. It's collapsed tube measures about 2,11 cm from the flange. With any collapsable lens shorter than this there should be no problem with the M8. As long as the distance to the M 9's shutter is not shorter, this should apply also for the M9. Though it's always safer not to collapse a lens; especially when you mount it! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/100727-screwmount-elmar-50mm-with-the-m9/?do=findComment&comment=1082945'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 20, 2009 Share #11 Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) This question of the Summitar has puzzled me too... and tonight, caliper + Summitar + old M2 + M8 + Summicron DR + tripod ! 1) Caliper : Summitar collapsed, no BM adapter : about 19 mm flange to back of lens tube. 2) Summitar fully collapsed, onto M2, shutter opened : Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Shutter curtain's slit looks safely far from lens back - some 5 mm, consistent with the measure in 1) Maybe Wilson has an "odd" Summitar ? This is mine, collapsed and uncollapsed : And the M2 with the collapsed Summitar mounted , front view : Seems everything is OK, to me... I confess I never tested/mounted it onto M8... the Summarit 1,5 is by far my preferred "old luminous"... Edited October 20, 2009 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Shutter curtain's slit looks safely far from lens back - some 5 mm, consistent with the measure in 1) Maybe Wilson has an "odd" Summitar ? This is mine, collapsed and uncollapsed : And the M2 with the collapsed Summitar mounted , front view : Seems everything is OK, to me... I confess I never tested/mounted it onto M8... the Summarit 1,5 is by far my preferred "old luminous"... ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/100727-screwmount-elmar-50mm-with-the-m9/?do=findComment&comment=1082998'>More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 20, 2009 Share #12 Posted October 20, 2009 It was not the shutter in my M4 which the Summitar hit (it is the final version with the hexagonal diaphragm) but the curved shields which are at the top and bottom of the curtains and I assume, protect the tracks the curtains run in. My M4 went off on Monday for a CLA and to have the fungus removed from the rangefinder otherwise I would take a photo and show the marks that the back of the lens made on these shields. I have however taken a photo of my IIF and put an arrow to the parts which were marked in my M4. Here is also a pic of my Summitar. After marking the tracks of my M4, I measured the rear projection and came to the same conclusion as Uli that it was not safe for an M8. Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/100727-screwmount-elmar-50mm-with-the-m9/?do=findComment&comment=1083045'>More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 20, 2009 Share #13 Posted October 20, 2009 .... After marking the tracks of my M4, I measured the rear projection and came to the same conclusion as Uli that it was not safe for an M8. It has not been my conclusion that the collapsed Summitar is not safe for an M8 - though I would not give any guarantee to anybody that it is safe! All Elmars intrude further towards the shutter than my Summitar and the Elmars are said to be safe. I just checked, if the rear end of the collapsible tube of the Summitar has a larger diameter than an Elmar, so that this could cause touching the shields in the M4, but I see no difference. The Summitar shows some edges at the rear end, but even with those, the last version Elmar's diameter is perhaps half a millimeter larger. So maybe the last version of the Summitar - with hexagonal diaphragm - shows different features. I hope, I am able to compare them soon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 24, 2009 Share #14 Posted October 24, 2009 (edited) This question continues to intrigue me ... I made a pair of pics of my 589850 Summitar: looks dissimilar from Wilson's item (not strange, different generation), and in detail it has a black covering at the end of the brass tube of the lens: seems a cylindrical insert in the tube itself, flattened and machined at the end which bears the 3 blades that lock the lens when is extended : in Wilson's item it's directly the lens tube that is machined at the end to obtain the blades. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Does this mean a different length of the protrusion of the tube when lens is collapsed ? What is sure is that my caliper says this : And the measure from the body lens flange to the shields evidenced in Wilson's pic of the "mouth" of his Leica SM is 20 mm (about) on my IIIf. So a little clearance... I can make small measurement errors..., but the clearance, with my Summitar, does exist, and onto my M bodies (with LTM adapter on) is nearly the same. Edited October 24, 2009 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Does this mean a different length of the protrusion of the tube when lens is collapsed ? What is sure is that my caliper says this : And the measure from the body lens flange to the shields evidenced in Wilson's pic of the "mouth" of his Leica SM is 20 mm (about) on my IIIf. So a little clearance... I can make small measurement errors..., but the clearance, with my Summitar, does exist, and onto my M bodies (with LTM adapter on) is nearly the same. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/100727-screwmount-elmar-50mm-with-the-m9/?do=findComment&comment=1088107'>More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 24, 2009 Share #15 Posted October 24, 2009 Luigi, 20.1mm is what I make my Summitar, hence why mine might be dangerous and yours safe. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 24, 2009 Share #16 Posted October 24, 2009 Even with 20.1 mm - my pre-war Summitar 523xxx measures 18mm - the Summitar collapes less than a screw mount Elmar with 22.6 mm (red scale) or 20.75 mm nickel. For the last version 2.8/50 M-Mount Elmar, which is said to be safe, I measure 20.5 mm. For all screw mount lenses you have to subtract 1 mm for the adapter if you use them with a M. I hope i get hold of a post-war Summitar soon. I' ll compare it with the other collapsible lenses. All I know now, the Summitar is less collapsing into the body than all Elmar-versions, the collapsble Summicron and the Summar are even shorter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 25, 2009 Share #17 Posted October 25, 2009 Even with 20.1 mm - my pre-war Summitar 523xxx measures 18mm - the Summitar collapes less than a screw mount Elmar with 22.6 mm (red scale) or 20.75 mm nickel. For the last version 2.8/50 M-Mount Elmar, which is said to be safe, I measure 20.5 mm. For all screw mount lenses you have to subtract 1 mm for the adapter if you use them with a M. I hope i get hold of a post-war Summitar soon. I' ll compare it with the other collapsible lenses. All I know now, the Summitar is less collapsing into the body than all Elmar-versions, the collapsble Summicron and the Summar are even shorter. Uli, Certainly the final version Elmar was safe as I used a black coded one on my M8 for some time. After I exchanged my Noctilux, which I found physically very uncomfortable to use with my very arthritic hands, for an APSH 50 Summilux, I decided, wrongly as it turns out, that I did not need any other 50 mm M lenses and sold both my Elmar and Summicron. In the end I did not terribly like the way the 50 Lux drew, used it very little, so part exchanged it for a 28/35/50 Tri Elmar, which I love and use all the time when travelling. I have now re-acquired a 50 Summicron in anticipation of my M9 arriving. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 26, 2009 Share #18 Posted October 26, 2009 Luigi, 20.1mm is what I make my Summitar, hence why mine might be dangerous and yours safe. Wilson OK, things are rather clear, now... ; and, regarding Uli's observations about the Elmars... could be that Elmars'tube has a smaller DIAMETER ? (not at home, I can't check...) ; it could be logical for a f3,5 or 2,8 lens vs. a f2... and a smaller diameter could prevent interfering with the shields evidenced in your picture... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 26, 2009 Share #19 Posted October 26, 2009 The diameter of the last version's M-mount Elmar's rear end is a little bit larger than the one of the Summitar (early version). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 28, 2009 Share #20 Posted October 28, 2009 Update to our inquiry, wether the 2/5cm Summitar is more dangerous to collapse in a M-Body. After measuring and comparing an old Summitar (No. 523xxx) with other lenses I now had a chance to do the same with a post-war Summitar (No. 794xxx). I measure it collapsing 18mm into the body - which is the same than I did for the first version. Here you see both versions (new one on the right) fully collapsed at infinity compared to a scale which shows the distance to the edge besides the shutter for the M3: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! From what I can see and measure none of the Summitar versions should touch the edges - even if you don't add 1 mm for the screw-mount-to-M-adapter, which you have to do. Now both version compared to the 50mm Elmar (last version), which is in the middle: From what i see and measure the 50mm Elmar collapses more into the body than any of the Summitars. Now to the question about diferences of the lenses at the rear end of the collapsing tubes. The diameter of the rear end has a maximum of 30,05mm for the Elmar (on top), and about 30,02 for both versions of the Summitar (new version on the right side) If they would reach the edges besides the shutter they would all touch it, for these edges have a distance of about 24 (+) mm. The Elmar is very close to touch this edge on a M3! So I have no evidence that the 5cm Summitar might be more harmful as any version of a 50mm Elmar if you used it collapsed on a M-Body. This does not mean that it is completely without any risk to do so; but any 5cm or 50mm-Elmar should be more risky than any other collapsible 50-mm lens, for all others collapse less and at least the last version of the Elmar is very slightly thicker at the end of it's collapsible tube. Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! From what I can see and measure none of the Summitar versions should touch the edges - even if you don't add 1 mm for the screw-mount-to-M-adapter, which you have to do. Now both version compared to the 50mm Elmar (last version), which is in the middle: From what i see and measure the 50mm Elmar collapses more into the body than any of the Summitars. Now to the question about diferences of the lenses at the rear end of the collapsing tubes. The diameter of the rear end has a maximum of 30,05mm for the Elmar (on top), and about 30,02 for both versions of the Summitar (new version on the right side) If they would reach the edges besides the shutter they would all touch it, for these edges have a distance of about 24 (+) mm. The Elmar is very close to touch this edge on a M3! So I have no evidence that the 5cm Summitar might be more harmful as any version of a 50mm Elmar if you used it collapsed on a M-Body. This does not mean that it is completely without any risk to do so; but any 5cm or 50mm-Elmar should be more risky than any other collapsible 50-mm lens, for all others collapse less and at least the last version of the Elmar is very slightly thicker at the end of it's collapsible tube. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/100727-screwmount-elmar-50mm-with-the-m9/?do=findComment&comment=1092711'>More sharing options...
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