tashley Posted January 28, 2008 Share #1 Posted January 28, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Alright, it's a town not a city but I'm a sucker for The Wasteland. Here's a shot and a crop. M8, ISO 160, 28 cron with filter. Tripod, 1/000th second, F something or other near 8. LR development with nothing done other than white balance. Of course. Notes: I have seen these two effects before with the M8. The first I like, the second is cruddy. Effect 1) Weird, surreal, flat colour effect on surfaces, almost posterised but without the clear zone edge transitions. Looks like a mildly naive-school paint effect. Effect 2) Just look at the white railing sections. The 'maze' effect (yes I know there are some bits of RAW software that'll get rid of it, but I like to get my hair and nails done in the same place) is usually seen in bright red/orange lightsources in nightshots. Here it is bold as brass in broad daylight. After 14 months with this rather marvellous camera, it continues to surprise! Tim Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/43873-unreal-city/?do=findComment&comment=464523'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 28, 2008 Posted January 28, 2008 Hi tashley, Take a look here Unreal City. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Jamie Roberts Posted January 28, 2008 Share #2 Posted January 28, 2008 Ok, I'll bite, and it isn't even April... Tim--I don't see anything particularly posterized or naive about the top shot; except that the blues look too cyan (a LR trademark, IMO). I see some, what? artifacts at the limit of resolution in the white fencing in the bottom shot--nothing like the weird orange cone effects we've seen here. But then these aren't 100% crops. So for colour--you either like ACR / LR or hate it (I'm in the latter camp, sort of, but I secretly know that's because I haven't bothered tweaking it ). On the other hand, I believe the colour response out of LR / ACR on the M8 is severely clamped, so you might have bad transition effects (I've certainly seen them in print compared with C1). If you want different colour and different artifact / aliasing then, yeah, nails notwithstanding, you need a different raw converter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted January 28, 2008 Share #3 Posted January 28, 2008 I come across both effects (if I understand your first observation correctly) fairly frequently. The moire effects (issue 2) can be especially annoying if you want to get rid of them for stock submissions (they rarely have any noticeable impact for prints). Interesting to see all that wood washed up on the shore. I was tempted to go down and have a look but have been too busy recently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share #4 Posted January 28, 2008 Ok, I'll bite, and it isn't even April... Tim--I don't see anything particularly posterized or naive about the top shot; except that the blues look too cyan (a LR trademark, IMO). I see some, what? artifacts at the limit of resolution in the white fencing in the bottom shot--nothing like the weird orange cone effects we've seen here. But then these aren't 100% crops. So for colour--you either like ACR / LR or hate it (I'm in the latter camp, sort of, but I secretly know that's because I haven't bothered tweaking it ). On the other hand, I believe the colour response out of LR / ACR on the M8 is severely clamped, so you might have bad transition effects (I've certainly seen them in print compared with C1). If you want different colour and different artifact / aliasing then, yeah, nails notwithstanding, you need a different raw converter Hi Jamie, This is no attempt at an April fool! My monitor doesn't show too much cyan in the blue, but maybe I've just gotten used to it. Prints from LR sometimes do though, you're right, and I have to take drastic measures from time to time. Luckily I just won an eBay auction for an HP Z3100 with built-in spectrophotometer so soon my photos will be as finely calibrated as my lens collection! Just to clarify: the second shot is a 100% crop of the first. To my eye they both clearly show the effect I am talking about, but may not have described well. Look at the walls of the building with the cupola and the white building to its right: no sign of any colour gradations, tones, shades - just flat colour as if applied with a brush. Not exactly posterised but maybe 'quantised' if you've ever used any MIDI software. In any event, it's not realistic looking. Does anyone else see this slightly 'toytown effect'? I have had the maze look in night time light sources before: I think its a moire effect from the sensor pattern but I haven't seen it so evidently in a daylight shot. Best as ever Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share #5 Posted January 28, 2008 I come across both effects (if I understand your first observation correctly) fairly frequently. The moire effects (issue 2) can be especially annoying if you want to get rid of them for stock submissions (they rarely have any noticeable impact for prints). Interesting to see all that wood washed up on the shore. I was tempted to go down and have a look but have been too busy recently. Hi Ian, You really should get down there: I've taken loads of shots of it, it's a once in a lifetime chance: the piles of wood are huge in some places and go on for hundreds of yards: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/43873-unreal-city/?do=findComment&comment=464629'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 28, 2008 Share #6 Posted January 28, 2008 To my eye the shots look slightly overexposed and too cyan, but that could easily be the postprocessing. I see some moire as well. C1 would probably show this up less, and there is moire reducing software out there. It will always cost resolution though. Maybe you should put up the DNG on yousendit to let the postprocessing gurus have a go at it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share #7 Posted January 28, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) To my eye the shots look slightly overexposed and too cyan, but that could eaily be the postprocessing. I see some moire as well. C1 would probably show this up less, and there is moire reducing software out there. It will always cost resolution though.Maybe you should put up the DNG on yousendit to let the postprocessing gurus have a go at it. Hiya, I don't think it would be difficult to get rid of - though I do dislike having to fire up one of four or five different RAW converters depending on what the issue is! I really just posted it as a curiosity to see if others were seeing that kind of moire effect too, since I'd not seen it in a daylight shot before. To me the mildly unreal colours are more interesting: I have only seen them that strong in one other shot, also of a Sussex seaside town, taken from the pier in bright sunlight. Spooky! Best Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 28, 2008 Share #8 Posted January 28, 2008 Given the subject, you might consider processing for more weird colours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted January 28, 2008 Share #9 Posted January 28, 2008 Tim, curious indeed.... I agree on the 100% crop, I think the artifacts around the fencing is some kind of moire, and as Jaap says fixing that might cost some resolution (though since that's essentially a monochromatic part of the image, you could get rid of the colour noise pretty easily, I think, without destroying too much detail). As for transitions, yeah, I'd love to see what a different RAW processor really does (BTW--the domed roof is looking ok from what I can tell online...but the swatches of colour do look a little oversaturated or something)... (great BW shots, BTW!!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Posted January 28, 2008 Share #10 Posted January 28, 2008 For what it's worth, I've noticed a marked increase in moire since the 1.10 firmware update. Either that or I am getting better a focusing and the lenses are now out resolving the sensor. I must put the last 2 versions of firmware on 2 SD cards and prove the point to myself. Nice B&W shots BTW. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WPalank Posted January 28, 2008 Share #11 Posted January 28, 2008 Tim, As far as the moire goes, I was able to remove it in about 20 seconds by converting into the Lab space in Photoshop while working on your 8 bit jpeg. I think the results would be much better when working on 16 bit. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/43873-unreal-city/?do=findComment&comment=464793'>More sharing options...
tashley Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share #12 Posted January 28, 2008 Thanks Eoin! For a giggle I opened the file in C1 4 and Aperture as well. I developed at defaults again to see if there are any significant differences. I also had a private play with the file in all programs and found that C1 gave the best ability to deal with the moire and Aperture the worst. I wanted to try SilkyPix with its pattern noise suppression but the version I have only works with my LX2. The running order here is: LR C1 4 Aperture Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I output these all to the same %age jpeg quality but C1 has compressed its version a lot more, to approx half the filesize of Aperture and Light-room, and it shows. But I do think the conclusion is that at default settings all three programs retain the posterised look and none of them deals well with the moire. The C1 file is more immediately appealing since it seems to apply higher default sharpening and micro-contrast but it also exaggerates the moire. The Aperture file is the worst of both worlds: soggy and moire filled. Here's the best I could do, which was with C1 at bespoke rather than default settings: I simply banged the colour noise suppression up to 100% - nothing else had much impact. I also gave it less compression. As byword, giving the file 100% colour noise reduction in LR was less effective. Best t Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I output these all to the same %age jpeg quality but C1 has compressed its version a lot more, to approx half the filesize of Aperture and Light-room, and it shows. But I do think the conclusion is that at default settings all three programs retain the posterised look and none of them deals well with the moire. The C1 file is more immediately appealing since it seems to apply higher default sharpening and micro-contrast but it also exaggerates the moire. The Aperture file is the worst of both worlds: soggy and moire filled. Here's the best I could do, which was with C1 at bespoke rather than default settings: I simply banged the colour noise suppression up to 100% - nothing else had much impact. I also gave it less compression. As byword, giving the file 100% colour noise reduction in LR was less effective. Best t ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/43873-unreal-city/?do=findComment&comment=464812'>More sharing options...
tashley Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share #13 Posted January 28, 2008 Tim,As far as the moire goes, I was able to remove it in about 20 seconds by converting into the Lab space in Photoshop while working on your 8 bit jpeg. I think the results would be much better when working on 16 bit. Thanks William, That probably has about the same effect as using C1 and 100% colour noise reduction, see my separate post. It deals nicely with the distraction of the colour element if the moire but it's pretty evident that the shape element (i.e. the maze shape) is till strongly evident! Best Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WPalank Posted January 28, 2008 Share #14 Posted January 28, 2008 Tim, But look at the multiple windows on the second floor (I think). The C1 noise reduction changed the trim from green to a grayish tone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted January 28, 2008 Share #15 Posted January 28, 2008 Tim, FWIW I never compare JPEG output from a RAW converter, because PS makes the best JPEGs of all of them. I output TIFF, and I'm pretty sure I could get better results from C1 than that... Anyway, I played with the colour for 30 seconds on your JPEG in LAB, and tweaking the magenta and cyan content really does bring out detail to my eyes; however, the clouds are more magenta than perhaps they should be (unless this was taken as the sun was starting to go down--dunno!). And that's the problem with ACR / LR for me; tweak the colour one way and the others are out some. Again, I think LR needs a tweak along the green / magenta axis...(which often accounts for the purple skin tones from ACR too...) On my monitor, anyway, the original C1 default colour output looks best to me in that neutral appear neutral not blue / cyan (though the artifacts in the "moire" are not nice...) and the greens aren't quite so supersaturated... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share #16 Posted January 28, 2008 Tim, FWIW I never compare JPEG output from a RAW converter, because PS makes the best JPEGs of all of them. I output TIFF, and I'm pretty sure I could get better results from C1 than that... Anyway, I played with the colour for 30 seconds on your JPEG in LAB, and tweaking the magenta and cyan content really does bring out detail to my eyes; however, the clouds are more magenta than perhaps they should be (unless this was taken as the sun was starting to go down--dunno!). And that's the problem with ACR / LR for me; tweak the colour one way and the others are out some. Again, I think LR needs a tweak along the green / magenta axis...(which often accounts for the purple skin tones from ACR too...) On my monitor, anyway, the original C1 default colour output looks best to me in that neutral appear neutral not blue / cyan (though the artifacts in the "moire" are not nice...) and the greens aren't quite so supersaturated... Hmmm, I do trust your opinion on this a lot more than mine. Which profile are you using these days for a UV/IR filtered M8 shot in C1? And where do I find it?!!! best t Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WPalank Posted January 28, 2008 Share #17 Posted January 28, 2008 In PS, no tweaking the individual colors. Convert to Lab, make very rough selection with Lasso tool, investigate the three channels for the color pattern Here I found it in the a and b. Apply Gausian blur to the a an b separately (enough to knock out the color), convert back to RGB and deselect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergiolov Posted January 28, 2008 Share #18 Posted January 28, 2008 Tim, the maze pattern is aliasing and cannot be eliminated without an antialiasing filter. Read this page from Norman Koren site wich includes a little contribution (just a test pattern shot) from myself. Norman explains the effect very well. I know you have been in Italy....shame on you!! Scanners and sharpening: resolution and MTF Next time... Ciao. Sergio Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted January 28, 2008 Share #19 Posted January 28, 2008 Hmmm, I do trust your opinion on this a lot more than mine. Which profile are you using these days for a UV/IR filtered M8 shot in C1? And where do I find it?!!! best t Tim--I'm just using the stock UV/IR filtered profile for now; once C1 finalizes the pro enging (and Leica stops playing with the DNG matrix) then I'll make some more myself (and I'll be interested to see what facilities C1 V4 Pro has for correcting colour at the profile level). But I would try some tiffs and see--and depending on the time, remember those "whites" may not be absolutely neutral white either... In the meantime, William's advice on the LAB a/b blur is exactly what I would try (before any sharpening, of course) for the artifact / aliasing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WPalank Posted January 28, 2008 Share #20 Posted January 28, 2008 The other method for removing the color element of the moire in PS and stay in RGB is to duplicate the layer, apply a Gausian Blur until the color noise disappears (in this case 7 and yes the photo looks REALLY blurry). Change the blending mode of this copy layer to Color. If you get color shifts globally (I did in this image especially the blues), Option click the new layer mask icon to create an adjustment layer and turn it black and then paint with white on the layer mask where you need to remove the moire. I got the following result. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/43873-unreal-city/?do=findComment&comment=464917'>More sharing options...
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