M8 Extreme Cold Weather

[lousapienza]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I'm looking for photographers' experiences with extreme cold and the M8. I'd also be taking an M6 and MP as backup. Or should I not even consider the M8? Or should I run a test for Leica? Will have a Panasonic ToughBook for downloads (?) if we can keep it working too.

 

This ain't no ship board photo safari - I'll be on expedition to the Antarctic - no ship to return to at the end of the day - for up to six weeks this season and 3 months the following. The only heat is our own metabolism and great gear, living in tents on the glacier. but a contract to recover 3 air crewman from a 60 year old temporary grave. Average temp is 0 to 10F with possible 30 degree fluctuations in either direction, up to 100mph sustained katabatic winds most probable. Any real extended experience out there?

Thanks!

Lou

[Morten Grathe]

I think that your greatest concern will be battery-life. Bring many...

[luigi bertolotti]

If I were you... spare batteries and, above all, a mechanical M body in the bag: few space, light, shares lenses, won't stop ever (and don't forget the film for it )

 

Good trip

[jrc]

You might post a message on Luminous Landscape, whose owner led an Antarctic photo expedition last year, with another coming up next year; and a bunch of them live in Canada, where it gets cold. The owner took an M8 with him, I believe, in addition to some DSLRs and at least one MF, and if you searxch the site, I think you'll find an afteer-trip report on what worked and what didn't.

 

Actually, after a quick peek, it's here:

 

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/aa-07-worked.shtml

 

I live in Minnesota, where it gets cold, and the biggest problems I've had are battery life, which can drop to half or less (this is with Nikons) on constant exposure, and condensation problems when you move between cold and heat -- and that includes sleeping bag heat, because the interior of a sleeping bag is much more humid than the outdoors in serious cold.

 

You can also have problem with film in deep cold, but that kind of cold you apparently only get on the deepest end -- you should be okay to -20F or so. In serious cold you've got no humidity, less than in the sahara, and if you ratchet film fast enough, you can get static sparks. Film can also break, as it becomes much less flexible.

 

You know that neither your Leicas nor your lenses are weather sealed, and that's a long time to live outdoors without seals, so you'll have to be careful. I'd take duplicates of cleaning equipment...

 

It's useful to take soft pants with pockets as your bottom layer, and keep batteries in the pockets. That way, if you freeze your balls off, you'll know that your batteries are also probably dead. 8-)

 

JC

[lars_bergquist]

Leave your M8 at home. That is no place for digital gear, unless you have a diesel generator handy. Bring the M6 and the MP, AND a hand meter you can bring along under the clothing, keeping it warm. Be aware that the cameras will have to stay cold, because bringing them inside even a heated tent will fog up everything with condensation; taking a camera outside in that condition will simply freeze it solid.

 

One good tactic is to tack insulating foam material to the camera backs. It is not much fun walking around with a camera frozen to your nose, even if it it a Leica. A terrorist hood will also help, of course.

 

You will of course use double gloves. See to it that the inner gloves are thin and flexible enough to permit operating the cameras.

 

Practice holding your breath! An iced-over finder eyepiece is not much use.

 

The old man from the Age of WWII

[marknorton]

Are you saying you'll be away from a power socket for 6 weeks? If so, I think the M8 is going to be a real problem for you, however many batteries you take.

[como]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Took my M8 to Kiruna in North Sweden last february. Temperature was about -15 celcius.

As long as your camera is under your coat you have no problems at all. While photographing Aurora Borealis at night from a tripod the battery lasted for 30 minutes. Afterwards I had to warm the camera under my coat and replace the battery, then it worked fine again.

I asked Jolanda Linschooten (http://www.PoleSpirit.nl) who crossed Greenland about digital photographing. She answered that the camera was no problem but she had to wear the battery on her skin all the time and only took it out to make a picture.

 

Co Morriën

[jaapv]

If I were you... spare batteries and, above all, a mechanical M body in the bag: few space, light, shares lenses, won't stop ever (and don't forget the film for it )

 

Good trip

 

And have Leica prepare that mechanical body for extreme cold -there is a special protocol for that. It must be lubricated for normal use again when you come to more normal cicumstances.

[lars_bergquist]

We are speaking of the Antarctic summer. What temperatures are you expecting? Are they markedly lower than those of a Sub-Arctic winter, as in Kiruna in Lapland? Modern lubricants mean that Leica expect their cameras to function down to –20° C; "winterizing" was done at a time when especially cameras with focal plane shutters started malfunctioning already at about 0°.

 

The old man from 1900 froze-to-death

[Hookeye]

A tip on metering in a snowscape: Because of all the white you tend to get your shots underexposed. Clean snow reflects about 80% of the light. A standard grey-card reflects 18% (say = 20%), i.e. one quarter of the snow reflection. You can use the snow as an ever present "grey card". If you point your spot meter or Leica towards an even, white snow surface and set the correct exposure for that. Then you open TWO full steps on the diaphragm or the equivalent using a combination of shutter and diaphragm - you will get a correct exposure for most situations. If you use slide film where exposure is critical - you would want to bracket your shots plus and minus half a step as well -for the most important shots. Ah, and do not forget your woolen underwear :-)

 

What Lars says about holding your breath is also vitally important. Otherwise your camera will soon be all glazed over with frost.

 

I have found that keeping the camera underneath the outermost layer of clothing and just taking it out for just the short period you need it for the shot can get good results. It keeps the camera just a few degrees warmer than the outside air. But for that you need a relatively non-bulky lens. My favourite is the 35mm 2.8 Summaron on the M6. Just keep it on all the time and use it for all your shots.

[thrid]

I think lars_bergquist is right on the money.

 

Put the camera(s) etc in ziplock bags and suck the air out of them, before you enter an area (tent etc) that is warner than where you were working. This should lower the amount of condensation that will form on and inside your gear. Keep the camera under your jacket and only take it out when you need to take a shot. LCD's go blank in extreme cold and I wouldn't be surprised if the screen on the back also fades.

 

If you take a film camera advance the film gently or it may tear in the cold (film becomes brittle). Obviously you will also want to keep any film you are going to use warm...

 

I would give Leica a ring about the need to winterize the lubricants.

 

If I was going on this trip I would take two mechical m cameras and a pile of batteries.

Too bad the M8 doesn't have a remote battery that you could keep in your clothes.

[jaapv]

We are speaking of the Antarctic summer. What temperatures are you expecting? Are they markedly lower than those of a Sub-Arctic winter, as in Kiruna in Lapland? Modern lubricants mean that Leica expect their cameras to function down to –20° C; "winterizing" was done at a time when especially cameras with focal plane shutters started malfunctioning already at about 0°.

 

The old man from 1900 froze-to-death

 

He is talking about -32 centigrade and below, Lars. The lowest I took an M6 (not winter-proofed, I was told it was not needed) was -45 Celsius in winter in Karasjok. It stopped and the lens seized up. I went inside....

[thrid]

He is talking about -32 centigrade and below, Lars. The lowest I took an M6 (not winter-proofed, I was told it was not needed) was -45 Celsius in winter in Karasjok. It stopped and the lens seized up. I went inside....

 

-45 C? I'm surprised YOU didn't seize up.

;-)

 

The coldest I have ever seen was -28 C and that was pretty darn cold.

[gmaurizio]

I'm looking for photographers' experiences with extreme cold and the M8. I'd also be taking an M6 and MP as backup. Or should I not even consider the M8? Or should I run a test for Leica? Will have a Panasonic ToughBook for downloads (?) if we can keep it working too.

 

This ain't no ship board photo safari - I'll be on expedition to the Antarctic - no ship to return to at the end of the day - for up to six weeks this season and 3 months the following. The only heat is our own metabolism and great gear, living in tents on the glacier. but a contract to recover 3 air crewman from a 60 year old temporary grave. Average temp is 0 to 10F with possible 30 degree fluctuations in either direction, up to 100mph sustained katabatic winds most probable. Any real extended experience out there?

Thanks!

Lou

 

Use a film camera, with as little electronics as possible.

[lousapienza]

Use a film camera, with as little electronics as possible.

 

Thank God here's a reason why film will never die!

[gmaurizio]

Lou, back in 2003 we decided, with a group of friends, to take a round sail boat trip around the Cape Horn. While it was October, and not as cold as it gets down in Antartica, conditions are pretty rough. Those are not your-usual-photo-shot-trip-to-see-the-penguins.

A couple of successive 18 mts (50 ft) waves managed to get aboard. All the cell phones, satellite phones, radio (except marine-ready VHF), digital cameras, and state-of-the-art film cameras were done. Not a single shot, phone call or anything, for good. Our only remaining camera was my father's M3 with the 50mm, and a bunch of fuji film rolls kept on a moisture-resistant plastic bag. In less than an hour, the M3 managed to save the trip. The old sunny-16 rule, plus the fact that color film has huge tolerance to exposure errors, made it.

[lars_bergquist]

What Hans says about exposure in snow is correct. I presume you already know that, but for the benefit of the frostbite-challenged: Meters are calibrated for an average subject reflectance of 18%, whilst fresh snow has a reflectance of close to 90%. So if you base your exposure on a straight, perhaps automatic reading of the snow, you will have at least a two-stop underexposure. There are four remedies:

 

1. Switch to Manual, read the snow, and open up 2 stops.

2. Switch to Manual and take a close reading of the non-snow part of the subject.

3. Use a hand-held incident meter to ascertain the light level, expose accordingly (with due compensation for backlighting, if necessary)

4. If you have a clear blue sky, take a reading of it as if from a Gray Card.

 

Note that I do not recommend dialing in compensation as a remedy!

 

The old man Father Frost

[wlaidlaw]

I was trying to use a Digilux 2 a few years ago on a skiing holiday, in temperatures of -30C. It was too big to keep inside clothing until you used it, so was being used at ambient temperatures, way outside the manufacturer's recommendations. It uses similar battery technology to the M8. I was getting about 2 to 3 images per battery before I took to keeping the batteries in my pockets until needed, then popping them into the camera, taking photos, then taking them out and back into the pocket. This worked OK but of course remembering that there was no mechanical movement taking place in a D2 other than the focus. I used manual focus to minimize the drain/delay from this source. In the M8, you have the shutter and re-cocking to consider. There may be just too much drag due to the viscosity of the lubricants and you may end up damaging the M8. On the other hand, if you used an Elmar 50 collapsible, a Summicron 35 or maybe the best a CV 35 pancake II, the M8 is small enough to keep inside clothing until needed. Of course you then have the condensation problem to conquer.......

 

Wilson

[FastFashnReloaded]

I'm looking for photographers' experiences with extreme cold and the M8. I'd also be taking an M6 and MP as backup. Or should I not even consider the M8? Or should I run a test for Leica? Will have a Panasonic ToughBook for downloads (?) if we can keep it working too.

 

This ain't no ship board photo safari - I'll be on expedition to the Antarctic - no ship to return to at the end of the day - for up to six weeks this season and 3 months the following. The only heat is our own metabolism and great gear, living in tents on the glacier. but a contract to recover 3 air crewman from a 60 year old temporary grave. Average temp is 0 to 10F with possible 30 degree fluctuations in either direction, up to 100mph sustained katabatic winds most probable. Any real extended experience out there?

Thanks!

Lou

 

Don't expect the LCD to be visible at less than -10C. LCDs just really don't like cold. The camera should still work though - you just won't be able to review pix.

 

I'd trust the film version M camera more. Do you need to get a cold temp gear lube changeout by Leica?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[FastFashnReloaded]

Thank God here's a reason why film will never die!

Just because something works well over a wide range of conditions doesn't mean that some bean counter won't kill it off.

 

Remember this?

 

Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Exactly how many pix of the expedition would have survived if the photographer had been using a digital camera. Let's see... Ship trapped in ice. Got that. Ship breaking up. Got that. Oh, batteries dead. No way to recharge. So much for history.

 

By the way, the company I work for makes industrial controllers. There was some worry that (1) the memory backup battery would explode at cold temps and (2) that the thing would not work at all. We did no cold-temp prepping on the unit, and found that while the LCD did cease to be an LCD at -10C, the processor, touch screen, relays etc worked down to -45C. I was surprised.

 

Of course the unit works off of a regular power supply, not a battery per se for overall operations. If the unit would have been battery operated for anything but backup memory we might have seen a different result.