„Fragestunde Forumstreffen - die Zusammenfassung“ – unauthorised English Version

[veraikon]

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Edit: Official summary is available here

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/89591-summary-q-session-stefan-daniel-during.html

 

Andreas Jürgensen started yesterday in the German part a thread in which he summarises the answers of Stefan Daniel during the question time held at the Leica User meeting at Hessenpark (near Wetzlar Germany).

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-kundenforum/89481-fragestunde-forumstreffen-die-zusammenfassung.html

In my view this transcript from the video tape , Andreas recorded during the meeting, are one of the most reliable sources we have.

Andreas also announced that there will be in near future a L-Forum TV video about the “press conference”.

 

I posted the link in some threads at the international forum and the answer was unisono:

Could we have a translation of Andreas's summary points. Please?

 

I hoped that Andreas would do it, but I thing he is to busy because of producing the video.

 

So I try it, even though I am not a good translator. Anybody who can improve it is invited to do it.

 

 

General strategy

 

Cooperation with Panasonic

 

* the cooperation with Panasonic lasts on

* It will give further compact cameras [in cooperation]

 

Leica and Micro FourThirds

 

* Leica won't offer any MFT cameras

* Eventually. Leica will offer MFT lenses

* MFT is an interesting system

* however the sensor size is a factor reducing it strongly

 

Leica and the forum

 

* Leica doesn't intend to offer an own forum

* the cooperation is considered as very good and constructive

* positive example is the first contribution of L Camera TV from the Leica production

* many Leica employees are reading in this forum, so that important contributions in the forum are reported at the latest an hour after announcement to the product management

* forum delivers many notes for the product development

* Stefan Daniel promises, to react in future more often [in the forum]

 

Leica as supplier of objectives for other camera systems

 

* patents which are needed are exchanged only within the Japanese camera industry

* Zeiss does have the foot in the door there by Cosina, Leica doesn't

* corresponding attempts of Leica to come to an agreement have failed till now.

 

New product ranges

 

* scanners aren't planned as new product range

* Beamers are continued, but without changeable optics

* Evtlually the CS can modified the Beamer (change optics)

 

 

 

R System

 

R10 and alternatives

 

* It won't give any digital [24X36mm] mirror reflex camera, named i.e. R10

* “However, -- and we work on this – there will be an adequate solution to use R lenses digitally”

* “It is important for us that owners of R lenses can photograph digitally in near future “

* This solution will have to do nothing to with the S2

* Leica has examined intensively, what a R10 had to work and what price this camera had to have.

* costs would be 6000 till 7000 euros and the product will limp for miles after the competition.

*, perhaps this would be a way for regular R-customers, however it would not have attracted new customers.

* therefore we [Leica] will not continue the R system and this present system runs out

* There isn´t anny certain time slot for the new solution yet

* indirect notes of Stefan Daniel, that it becomes FF

* It doesn't become a mirror reflex camera (SLR) definitely

 

DMR

Reason for the adjusting of the DMR was

 

* cooperation with Imacon, now Hasselblad ended very abruptly

* sales figures were very low (approx. 10% of M8/M8.2)

 

The DMR firmware will not developed further.

 

 

M System

 

M9

 

*, a M9 will come

* full format is technically very demanding with the M lenses

* “ we are a step further, but still not on the place were we can say tomorrow is the camera is there”

 

Upgradeprogramme M8

 

*no further Upgrade is planned

* Upgrades is not attractive for shopkeepers because it doesn´t generate additional sales are

* the upgrade programme has handicapped the sale of the Leica M8.2

*, second-hand cameras are beginner models which attracts new customers to Leica

* this [buying a used camera to step in to Leica RFs] would be discontinued by a further upgrade programme

 

Chip supplier

 

* Kodak supplies what the customer needs, e.g. with the special size of the S2 chip

* other chip manufacturer (eg. Sony) offers only “solid products”

 

Summarits respective "starter lenses"

 

* Summarits are true Leica lenses

* The expansion of this “starter lens” line already consisted in the LEICA ELMAR M of 1:3,8/24 mm

* It also will give further reasonable priced Leica [starter] lenses which perhaps aren't called Summarit, because this name is reserved for f 2.5 lenses.

* more than double 50mm Summiluxes as 50mm Summarits are sold.

 

 

wide angles

On the question whether “wider” wide angles are offered

 

* Leica has already one 16 mm, Leica could be only go still further to below there.

* ”this is one topic we devote ourselves to ” ....

 

Availability of the 18 mm viewfinder

 

* 18mm viewfinder will come still in June

* The frame precision wasn't sufficient yet, a rework therefore was necessary

 

Availability NOCTILUX [0.95]

 

* was announced for February

* production was more complex than thought at first

* the lens almost consists only of large cemented lenses [Kittglied – I don´t know the exact english word ]

*, these must cemented first, then they are coated

* at this process problems have resulted

* Leica has solved the problem so that larger quantities will come at the end of June/in the beginning of July.

 

 

 

S System

 

* zero series cameras are just built up

* the time schedule suits till now

* price will move on the standard of the top models in the digital professional segment, like the highend solutions of Hasselblad or Phase One

*, the body will clearly lay less than 20.000 euros

* the [image] quality of the S2 approaches the 50 MP solutions of the other manufacturers because of quality of the objectives and missing deeppass filter

* professional photographers are target group of the S2 (studio, fashion, car…)

* 10.000 cameras per annum are the complete market

* striven market share is at least a two-digit percentage

 

Author: Andreas Jürgensen

Source: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-kundenforum/89481-fragestunde-forumstreffen-die-zusammenfassung.html

[R10dreamer]

Leica has examined intensively, what a R10 had to work and what price this camera had to have.

* costs would be 6000 till 7000 euros and the product will limp for miles after the competition.

*, perhaps this would be a way for regular R-customers, however it would not have attracted new customers.

* therefore we [Leica] will not continue the R system and this present system runs out

 

 

ie: we have made all the money we can off of the existing R customers so they can cry all they want - we don't care. Nice knowing you.

 

And I was thinking very strongly about buying the S2 but Leica, by the above translation, has killed that. When will they decide to not care about the future S base? 2 years? 3 years? 5 years? Why would anyone pay anything close to a Hassy 39, 50, 60? system when they can't trust Leica will still support their users in the short term years down the road. Keep in mind they only sold the DMR for a couple of years before they discontinued it. Why spend $40,000+ for a system they may decide to discontinue in a couple of years. My father always taught me that if you can't do something right, don't do it. If Leica can't run their business then sell it to someone that can. I hope the S2 is a success but I now have very strong doubts whether Leica can stay stable enough both economically and with management focus to ever succeed. Keep in mind, this isn't the original Leica. Those people and times are mostly gone. Leica in name but not Leica in game.

 

http://www.garydwhalen.com

[Steve Ash]

Leica has examined intensively, what a R10 had to work and what price this camera had to have.

* costs would be 6000 till 7000 euros and the product will limp for miles after the competition.

*, perhaps this would be a way for regular R-customers, however it would not have attracted new customers.

* therefore we [Leica] will not continue the R system and this present system runs out

 

 

ie: we have made all the money we can off of the existing R customers so they can cry all they want - we don't care. Nice knowing you.

 

And I was thinking very strongly about buying the S2 but Leica, by the above translation, has killed that. When will they decide to not care about the future S base? 2 years? 3 years? 5 years? Why would anyone pay anything close to a Hassy 39, 50, 60? system when they can't trust Leica will still support their users in the short term years down the road. Keep in mind they only sold the DMR for a couple of years before they discontinued it. Why spend $40,000+ for a system they may decide to discontinue in a couple of years.

 

GD Whalen Photography

 

The big difference is that -as I understood- the DMR was an external technology which became unavailable. The S2 is a Leica proprietary development.

 

Regards

Steve

[veraikon]

, by the above translation, has killed that

sorry - I am not a native speaker (and to be honest my english is really poor) and at least a bad translator.

 

When will they decide to not care about the future S base?

"they" (= Leica) didn´t decide - it was Imacon/Hasselblad who decided for Leica not to cooperate further.

Therefore the S2 is a proprietary development - nobody can decide for Leica.

[spylaw4]

sorry - I am not a native speaker (and to be honest my english is really poor) and at least a bad translator.

 

Thanks for that veraikon - much better and more readable than the Babelfish translation that I posted elsewhere earlier today after the requests.

[dave_d]

The news about the R10 is very disappointing and I can't imagine many professionals are going to jump on the Leica "S" band wagon if you can't trust Leica to support their products in the future as Gary mentioned above. Especially when you can't afford to own a back-up body. I shoot professionally and for 98% of my work 12 Megapixels is plenty, as is with most photographers. When I need bigger files I will rent a camera to do the job. Come on Leica! I am looking for a 35mm Full Frame SLR to replace my DMR in the not to distant future.

[mjh]

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Keep in mind, this isn't the original Leica. Those people and times are mostly gone.

Somehow this reminds me of Monty Python’s ‘Decomposing Composers’: “Verdi and Wagner delighted the crowds / With their highly original sounds. / The pianos they played are still working, / But they’re both six feet underground.” As are Ernst Leitz I and II, and Oskar Barnack. So?

 

The DMR was a great concept in its time, and of those customers it appealed to, a sizable number bought it. But the R market hadn’t been growing for some time and the market for the DMR got saturated soon. With the partnership with Imacon disintegrating and DMR sales being slow, there was no sense in continuing the product. The same goes for the R system as such. If Leica had just stopped manufacturing but kept quiet about it, who would have noticed? There was enough supply for what little remaining demand there was.

 

Now of course Leica had seriously considered developing an R10, i.e. a digital R, but I’m afraid their recent assessment – that the R10 they could build would deliver too little at too high a price – is essentially correct. The S2 is a much more realistic proposition, given the state of the medium-format market, so that’s where they are going.

 

What else could Leica have done? Had they summoned the ghosts of Ernst Leitz I and II and asked them for advice, would they have told them any different? I doubt it.

 

Even now that the R is mostly dead and buried, Leica is still catering for R photographers, promising a good solution for taking their existing lenses into the digital future. I hope they can make good on this promise and I trust they will do their best – what more can one realistically ask for?

[spylaw4]

Well said, Michael. Realistic, even if disappointing for some.

[jaapv]

Leica has examined intensively, what a R10 had to work and what price this camera had to have.

* costs would be 6000 till 7000 euros and the product will limp for miles after the competition.

*, perhaps this would be a way for regular R-customers, however it would not have attracted new customers.

* therefore we [Leica] will not continue the R system and this present system runs out

 

 

ie: we have made all the money we can off of the existing R customers so they can cry all they want - we don't care. Nice knowing you.

 

And I was thinking very strongly about buying the S2 but Leica, by the above translation, has killed that. When will they decide to not care about the future S base? 2 years? 3 years? 5 years? Why would anyone pay anything close to a Hassy 39, 50, 60? system when they can't trust Leica will still support their users in the short term years down the road. Keep in mind they only sold the DMR for a couple of years before they discontinued it. Why spend $40,000+ for a system they may decide to discontinue in a couple of years. My father always taught me that if you can't do something right, don't do it. If Leica can't run their business then sell it to someone that can. I hope the S2 is a success but I now have very strong doubts whether Leica can stay stable enough both economically and with management focus to ever succeed. Keep in mind, this isn't the original Leica. Those people and times are mostly gone. Leica in name but not Leica in game.

 

GD Whalen Photography

 

Hmmm... You should buy Canon then, I suppose. When they changed their mount they did not even attempt to offer a solution for the existing lens owners. It was just a case of too bad. Leica is planning to cater for the current owners - all too few- of a technology they can no longer continue. I see that as a positive thing.

[dave_d]

Their is a reason for the "state of the medium format market". This reason is because professional photographers are realizing that they rarely need 39 megapixels and are using 35mm type digtal cameras instead. Why spend $20,000 on a camera body when a $5,000 body will do the job, especially when clients are cutting back on their budgets. Add on top of that they cost of storing all those 39 megapixel images and it doesn't make good business sense for most professionals to buy a medium format digital camera when they can rent one when needed. Leica is jumping into a market that has fewer potential customers than a 35mm SLR market has to offer. Part of me wonders if Leica is only trying to get revenge on Hassleblad for screwing them around with the DMR. I am sure the S system will be the best medium format camera on the market but I don't see it as a bigger seller than a full frame digital R body.

[jaapv]

Who is to say that Leica will not set up a rent-out system, or that a firm like Calumet will not add a number of S2 systems to their stable?

[LUF Admin]

Hi,

 

thanks for the translation - I'll try to improve it tonight...

 

Regards

Andreas

[dave_d]

I am sure rental houses will buy and rent Leica S2 systems but Leica doesn't make much money on rentals to photographers by Calumet and sales to rental houses are few.

[jaapv]

A lot of little steps make a journey.. I was told by a mid-level Calumet employee that there is a strong interest in the M2, both for reintroducing Leica into the sales catalogue and for rentals.

[mooky]

The fact that Leica canceled the 'R10" is disappointing; but a wise decision. The are not stopping supporting the R user or lenses - they said that.

 

Try and see what the latest designs and features are now in the industry, and consider that maybe, just maybe, that 'mirrored finders' are going the way of the dinosaur. More and more cameras are becoming HD or some type of video captive featured.

 

My point is that as shocking as all of this seems to be - from a marketing, technology, sales, and numerous other ways, including surviving it makes sense. We'll have a 'body' of some sort for the R lenses we love to use and as long as it performs and 'sees' the way a Leica does, well, I'd rather have it sooner than later, but as long as they say that they aren't stopping, I'll wait.

 

With every negative there is a positive.

[LUF Admin]

I just published my official summary in English here:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/89591-summary-q-session-stefan-daniel-during.html

 

@Veraikon

Thanks for your your support!

 

Andreas

[Guest Bernd Banken]

a lot of little steps make a journey.. I was told by a mid-level calumet employee that there is a strong interest in the m2, both for reintroducing leica into the sales catalogue and for rentals.

 

m2 = s2?