Will batteries be the death of digitals?

[elansprint72]

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I've just been on a battery re-charging spree:

2x Nikon D700

6x Digilux 2

3x C-Lux 2&3

5x V-Lux1

It occurred to me that continued supply of some of these batteries in years to come may be the reason that the cameras become unusable. I know that some of what we regard as modern classic cameras (SLRs from the 70s and 80s, etc) are fitted with batteries made from unobtanium.

I'm fairly confident about the Nikon but, even though my "Leicas" have Panasonic equivalents, will decent batteries to the correct pattern be available in 20 years?

I have bought cheapo pattern batteries for the D2 (since 2005) and the V-Lux (actually for an FZ-30, since 2006) but some of these are now toast. I bought a cheapo for the C-Lux last year and that died after six months.

Obviously Leica do not make batteries, Panasonic do, but where can one get them from? I would like to upgrade my stock level, while I still can.

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[Nicoleica]

I share your concern here, as there are so many variations of battery in recent digital cameras.

However all is not doom & gloom, as I understand that there are several companies who can replace the cells in an extinct battery with fresh modern cells. Although these may prove to be expensive at present, at least they exist as an option.

In the same way that alternatives to the mercury cell appeared a few years ago, some being adaptors to utilise more modern cells, future technology may well provide a 'standard' cell that will be able to be fitted into many devices via suitable adaptors.

I have a reasonable collection of rather aged film cameras and accessories. My old Nikons can fortunately all accept current cells, but some of the more obscure cameras and accessories are harder to find replacements for, but I have not failed in this quest yet.

[giordano]

It's only electricity. There'll always be batteries in some form, and always firms like this (found by Bing, I've no experience with them) Mail-order Battery Store and Custom Made Cell Pack Solutions - Battery Replacement Service to fit new batteries into old casings. Just hang on to your dead batteries so they can be rebuilt, don't take them to the recycling depot.

 

The big problem with the "modern classics" you mention was that their exposure metering circuitry was designed to use the mercury battery itself as a constant reference voltage. Modern circuits don't do that, so precise battery voltage is simply much less important than before.

[Digitom]

That is really a problem, and it is really actual: I just heard from my Leica-seller that the battery for D-Lux (the 1st model of that line) will be only available for a short time! I cannot understand why there are som many different types of cells on the market - well, I understand it from the view of the industry who want to fix the customer to their products, but that is no good service in general. Although there are many 3rd part LiIon cell producer it is to be seen they only serve a massmarket of some mainstream products, or they serve for a period of time. The only solution is to standardize these energy cells to only a few types so the usage of a digital camera is not limited to the availability of the special-form factor of a simple battery!

[nigelb]

Most 'dedicated' camera batteries are lithium ion. A lithium-ion battery provides 300-500 discharge/charge cycles. The battery prefers a partial rather than a full discharge. Frequent full discharges should be avoided when possible. Instead, charge the battery more often. They are not affected by 'memory' effect.

 

At 1 charge a week a battery should last 6-10 years. If you use two thats 12-20 years. So buy lots of batteries label and number them up and charge in sequence so they all get the same number of charges. That should keep our cameras going for a while. Some of you will say you have batteries only last a few months, ok sh*t happens, but this is more likely to be caused by over-discharge than over charge with lithium cells. So charge when the battery level indicator gets down to one section or before not when the camera stops working.

 

Don't want to distress you unduly but do you think SD cards will be around in 20 years?

 

Nigel

[DavidE]

I've just been on a battery re-charging spree:

 

Obviously Leica do not make batteries, Panasonic do, but where can one get them from? I would like to upgrade my stock level, while I still can.

 

Hi Pete,

 

Try ;

https://www.pas-europe.com/#

 

Excellent, helpful, quick service.

 

Site lists not only batteries, but some accessories that fit both DMC LC1 and Digilux 2.

 

If the listings on the sites do not include accessories you require suggest you telephone them.

 

Alternate site:

Panasonic Spares - Panasonic DMCLC1 Camera Spares, Spare Parts & Accessories

 

Regards

 

David

[Digitom]

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Most 'dedicated' camera batteries are lithium ion. A lithium-ion battery provides 300-500 discharge/charge cycles. The battery prefers a partial rather than a full discharge. Frequent full discharges should be avoided when possible. Instead, charge the battery more often. They are not affected by 'memory' effect.

 

At 1 charge a week a battery should last 6-10 years. If you use two thats 12-20 years. So buy lots of batteries label and number them up and charge in sequence so they all get the same number of charges. That should keep our cameras going for a while. Some of you will say you have batteries only last a few months, ok sh*t happens, but this is more likely to be caused by over-discharge than over charge with lithium cells. So charge when the battery level indicator gets down to one section or before not when the camera stops working.

 

Don't want to distress you unduly but do you think SD cards will be around in 20 years?

 

Nigel

 

 

You cannot compare SD cards with LiIon Cells, that is a seperate pair of shoes (Sd-cards will be alive in your sideboard and can be overwritten several thousand times)

I have other experience, with good results. It was always recommended to me, to discharge the battery until the camera switch off. That is the point the battery has the lowest power (it is not deep discharged then!). From that time it is recommended to load the battery. After that, you can store the full battery in or outside the camera. One should discharge the battery once a year and "refill". I heard that the loading cycle of the LiIon batteries is normal up to 90% of capacity, and the last 10 percent is some "stress" for the cell. A friend of mine, he is electronic engeneer, told me, that it is better only to load up to 90 Percent. I do not know the point when 90% is reached, because I think the loading process is not linear. But I recognize the battery cell is warming up especially at the end of the loading process, so maybe that is the 90% point? well, nevertheless I load until the loading facility says it is full. But all of my batteries have never had a lifetime up to 10 Years - means they will never have that! That is really not realistic in real life. After 2-3 years of regular using one will find that the cycle from "Full" to "Empty" is going to be shorter and shorter. That is no memory effect but an performance dropdown which is normal for LiIon cells. And when the cycle is shorter, the problem is that 500 loading cycles in general will be counting down quicklier...

 

Also I made the experience that a battery can be new bought and dead - that has consequwnces when ne stores a battery: when I have been on vacation I went to a Panasonic shop to buy aLiIon cell for my Digilux 2. The seller sold me an original packed Panasonic battery for Digilux 1 (about 50 Euro). The size and mAh is same then for D2. But in the loading unit did not accept the battery. I put the Cell in the Hotel frigerator and then tried again. But no success. After some seconds longer the charger say "dead cell". I went to the shop- they have no problem and gave me another one - with same effect! So maybe the Digilux 1 battery has been stored too long at that shop!

 

Result: so if one buy a 2nd or 3rd battery for your cam, try to use all the units parallel, do not store one in a "safe place" - it is not!

And be aware of the fact that after 3-5 years when the battery is sold out you can put your camera into the vitrine

(but you can still use your SD Cards...)

[nigelb]

. But all of my batteries have never had a lifetime up to 10 Years - means they will never have that! That is really not realistic in real life. After 2-3 years of regular using one will find that the cycle from "Full" to "Empty" is going to be shorter and shorter. That is no memory effect but an performance dropdown which is normal for LiIon cells. And when the cycle is shorter, the problem is that 500 loading cycles in general will be counting down quicklier...

 

And be aware of the fact that after 3-5 years when the battery is sold out you can put your camera into the vitrine

(but you can still use your SD Cards...)

 

I still say, (as an electronic engineer myself who uses and specifies LiIon and Lipo batteries in a number of applications):-

 

Do not over discharge - this is not good for any lithium battery, shorter cycles is better than deep discharge.

 

Charge to full - all chargers do this and if you pull the battery from the charger before finished then the batteries may miss the balance cycle (if the charger has one) which stabilises and makes the voltage of all cells in the pack equal.

 

Spread use equally between all batteries - number them up if necessary.

 

Do not store lithium batteries in a discharged state, Ideally they should be stored at 40-50% capacity (this is what the manufacturers do before putting them in stock) but this is not always possible. Use them and cycle them more often than once a year.

 

I have numerous lithium batteries that have been in use for up to 12 years Nikon, Fuji as well as OEM cheapie brands. Occasionally I get one that dies prematurely but this happens. So long life is realistic in real life and if yours aren't then maybe you should take better note of this post.

 

Nigel

[tobey bilek]

Absolutely. That is why I have battery grips for my Nikons because they adapt to AA cells and those are not going away.

 

I learned about proprietary batteries years ago with a soligor spot meter. AVOID whenever possible.

 

Unfortunately there are other avenues to death with digital such as specialised circuit boards or sensors that go bad and can not be repaired, in short no parts and repair people can not repair or make them as they are too specialised. Look at the DMR if you don`t believe me.

Does that want to make you want to invest in a $7000 M9? Not me. You have to consider it disposable like a P&S $300 camera. They will be landfill in fifty years. I still have my M3 and it works and is repairable after 50 years.

 

I just got a new water pump and radiator for my 1983 oldsmobile. Previously it got new brakes, tires, tune up, exhaust system, battery. It runs perfectly and I can haul 10 foot boards inside, 4x8 sheets of plywood, landscaping rocks and stone. I drive it in winter and don`t worry about damage from salt.

 

My electronic 2004 Buick will never live 30 years.

[theendlesshouse]

Cant see it being the batteries, I just don't see any current digital camera being used 10 years from now, unless its modular.

[nigelb]

Cant see it being the batteries, I just don't see any current digital camera being used 10 years from now, unless its modular.

 

Well the Digilux 2 is experiencing a resurgence at the moment even though it is six years old. I have just bought a super D2 which I am enjoying using and getting excellent results with (and the original batteries are still working fine). I sincerely hope that it lasts me more than another four years. So I will take care of it. It could be the first 'classic vintage' digital camera. Maybe if manufacturers took more notice of what photographers want, and maybe if people didn't get caught up in the megapixel/facilities bandwagon, then perhaps digital cameras would become less disposable.

[jsrockit]

I think there will always be a way to use certain older digital cameras. If the cameras are considered classics, there will be 3rd parties who cater to users needs... If the cameras have some little quirk or whatever that makes them a cult classic, then people will figure out ways to make it run right. However, the majority of digital cameras will be considered junk... just like the majority of film cameras.

[Digitom]

I still say, (as an electronic engineer myself who uses and specifies LiIon and Lipo batteries in a number of applications):-

Do not over discharge - this is not good for any lithium battery, shorter cycles is better than deep discharge.

Nigel

 

No doubt about it, and that fact is surely known also be non-eEngeneers, because during normal useage it is not possible to deep discharge. That was not my theme.

 

...Spread use equally between all batteries - number them up if necessary.

Nigel

 

To number then is a good Idea. I do that because I have several packs for my cameras and I use them one by one so I know which is in the camera.

 

 

Do not store lithium batteries in a discharged state, Ideally they should be stored at 40-50% capacity (this is what the manufacturers do before putting them in stock) but this is not always possible. Use them and cycle them more often than once a year.

 

Half-full loading is not possible to realize with the common chargers. That is the problem. We "professionals" know all these problems but the customer needs a simple and convenient way to use the pack - means: use them until empty, charge it until the cell is full, then store it or use it. When doing that, the cell will stay alive for 3-4 years. After 2 years it will going to loose some capacity. Thats it. Many attempts to spread this time MAY be useful, CAN help, but normally I also will not make some big efforts (like store them in the freezer and what the hell we all can read in several forums). See the price of that cells - I think after 4 years they are "paid".

 

 

I have numerous lithium batteries that have been in use for up to 12 years Nikon, Fuji as well as OEM cheapie brands. Occasionally I get one that dies prematurely but this happens. So long life is realistic in real life and if yours aren't then maybe you should take better note of this post.

Nigel

 

1st: If you mean NoName brands with "OEM cheapie brands" I have to say strictly NO!

These cells are dangerous. I know about several explosion of these cells because they overcharged. One should only use brand-names (from camera brands or these good camera supply brands which are more expensive then these "black packs" without any well known name one can buy everywhere for lowest prices).

 

2nd: what you wrote about lifetime:

Maybe you are more familiar with these cells when your job is electronic engeneer and specifying these units. But - frankly said, my job is chemistry and the reactions in a rechargeable battery is a relative complex chemical reaction, a thing which is influenced by many different circumstances. After 1st charge the cell is aging. No chance to stop that process. The lifetime is then counting. It is not so easy as you wrote. I have never used and I know noone who has ever used a LiIon (and also NiMH, NiCd) over a time period of 12 years! Sure I had a Lithium battery in my old Sharp Science Calculator from 1986 which was running until 2008! But that is no rechargeable!

If you have 12 years old LiIons, in a normal, regular use, and they still can be used for more then 3 photos until the camera say "it is empty", you are a very lucky man Keep them and have fun with them....

 

By the way: we all should take notice about the 1st posting and the theme of this thread which was: if the availability of battery packs will be the limiting factor for a Digital camera?

I say YES! And when I see Leicas DMR-battery "tragedy", is is proofed.

[Digitom]

I think there will always be a way to use certain older digital cameras. If the cameras are considered classics, there will be 3rd parties who cater to users needs... If the cameras have some little quirk or whatever that makes them a cult classic, then people will figure out ways to make it run right. However, the majority of digital cameras will be considered junk... just like the majority of film cameras.

 

Please spend me some of your optimistic view But you are sure right IF there is a camera which is classic and often sold. But nowadays the 3rd parties more and more serve the mainstream and so the danger is high that there will be no support during a long time period. Maybe this can change if the types of battery packs are reduced to more standard types.

 

But at the moment it is going opposite: I read last year that in newer and future Panasonic cameras only Panasonic battery packs can be used! Others will not work. It is blocked by the camera electronic. Well, just a few days ago my seller told me that the 1st 3rd party product is on the market - and it works fine with Panasonic. Wel, all this is confusing a little - in summary it is not a good thing for the consumer!