M10? - Sorry, no!

[edw]

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From what I understand from the interview, the omission of video is due to technical difficulties not a design decision. The thin body leaving no space for heat dissipation and an adequate battery.

Your statement makes no sense to me. Design decisions are made in the context of engineering constraints. A recent interview has Leica product people saying that most people didn't care about video,and many people cared but care to have the feature omitted. They also mentioned that there are heat issues. There are also obviously ergonomics issues.

 

My personal anecdota: at least 95% of my interaction with the video recording abilities of my various cameras—including my iPhones—has been entirely unwanted, often as I've been trying to get a still shot.

 

Anyway, the "there are heat dissipation issues" sounds like the sort of thing a technically astute person would say to get the peanut gallery to STFU abut the feature and move on.

 

It's a bad idea. Three people want this feature. Please go get an SL already for shooting video with you M glass and head on over to the SL forum where you can start demanding XLR jacks or whatever.

 

 

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Edited February 11, 2017 by edw

[edwardkaraa]

Your statement makes no sense to me. Design decisions are made in the context of engineering constraints. A recent interview has Leica product people saying that most people didn't care about video,and many people cared but care to have the feature omitted. They also mentioned that there are heat issues. There are also obviously ergonomics issues.

 

My personal anecdota: at least 95% of my interaction with the video recording abilities of my various cameras—including my iPhones—has been entirely unwanted, often as I've been trying to get a still shot.

 

Anyway, the "there are heat dissipation issues" sounds like the sort of thing a technically astute person would say to get the peanut gallery to STFU abut the feature and move on.

 

It's a bad idea. Three people want this feature. Please go get an SL already for shooting video with you M glass and head on over to the SL forum where you can start demanding XLR jacks or whatever.

 

 

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But I don't want video, and there is no need to be so abrasive. Too much coffee? Edited February 11, 2017 by edwardkaraa

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[edw]

But I don't want video, and there is no need to be so abrasive. Too much coffee?

Yes, too much coffee, actually. Caffeine psychosis. My apologies.

 

 

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[edwardkaraa]

Yes, too much coffee, actually. Caffeine psychosis. My apologies.

 

 

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No problem

[-ph-]

Honestly, I think that if video is important enough to them that the lack of it would force them to another camera, then the M was never the camera for them in the first place. There are lots of other cameras and platforms that are more suited to video. The M is best suited to stills, and the M10 prioritizes that function above all else.

 

 

I am aware that the M10 does not prioritize video. I am fine that there is no longer a dedicated video button. I still don't get why people are arguing that it would be bad, if there were some almost hidden menu item which allowed those M10 users and tinkerers who desire to do it, to record video as good as the camera is able to.

 

Peter

[digitalfx]

I am aware that the M10 does not prioritize video. I am fine that there is no longer a dedicated video button. I still don't get why people are arguing that it would be bad, if there were some almost hidden menu item which allowed those M10 users and tinkerers who desire to do it, to record video as good as the camera is able to.

 

Peter

 

 

it clearly wouldn't be bad if it was that simple. If it changed the size of the camera, then no.

Having the option in the menu could be useful...but video in the M240 was seriously lacking, it had multiple issues that made it no more useful than whats already in my pocket. 

My iPhone records up to 120fps and even 4k and its with me 24/7...of course I cant put my Noctilux on the iPhone

Edited February 11, 2017 by digitalfx

[Cliff S]

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When the M240 was introduced the 2 most negative comments was the video and the bulk. Leica has corrected these two issues with the introduction of the M10. If customers prefer video and a larger battery the M240 is still available new and as people upgrade there will be ample used 240's on the market. A M for everyone !!!

I don't think people complained about having video. They, and I, just hated having the video button where it was often accidentally pressed only to find out you've been shooting video for 20 minutes while walking down the street.

[-Lss-]

I don't think people complained about having video. They, and I, just hated having the video button where it was often accidentally pressed only to find out you've been shooting video for 20 minutes while walking down the street.

The real solution to such problem is to improve the design and/or add options to the way the interface works. The lazy solution is to drop a feature.

[Dirk Mandeville]

The real solution to such problem is to improve the design and/or add options to the way the interface works. The lazy solution is to drop a feature.

I suppose, If you define "lazy" as listening to your user base and creating a clear demarcation between different product lines based on intended usage and future design and development needs.

 

People act like video has been a part of the M experience forever and Leica is crippling the camera by disposing of it. The truth is just the opposite. Leica has returned the M to its photographic roots after realizing that it was not the best platform for video, and they have created the SL to have a platform that can do video well. Best of both worlds.

 

Edit: I also think people that are saying essentially: "the hardware will support it and all they have to do is offer a menu item to make it happen" are making a lot of assumptions with no real clue of the potential technological limitations of the new body (heat dissipation, etc.) and their arguments aren't very persuasive.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Dirk Mandeville

[-Lss-]

I suppose, If you define "lazy" as listening to your user base and creating a clear demarcation between different product lines based on intended usage and future design and development needs.

I don't recall using such a definition. And I don't agree with this marketing spin.

[Dirk Mandeville]

I don't recall using such a definition. And I don't agree with this marketing spin.

Fair enough. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I, for one, am quite happy that Leica dropped the video function and is focusing their efforts on making the M the best instrument for digital photography that it can be.

[colonel]

buT making the body slimmer meant removing video .

 

not sure this is true. there are lots of cameras that do video that are thinner

this was a style issue

Edited February 11, 2017 by colonel

[digitalfx]

not sure this is true. there are lots of cameras that do video that are thinner

this was a style issue

That is completely irrelevant. My iPhone is thinner and it shoots stills and video.

 

If you could point out another full frame rangefinder that's "thinner" then you would be making a valid argument.

 

 

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Edited February 11, 2017 by digitalfx

[-ph-]

That is completely irrelevant. My iPhone is thinner and it shoots stills and video.

 

If you could point out another full frame rangefinder that's "thinner" then you would be making a valid argument.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

 

The rangefinder is not preventing the inclusion of video. If anything, it would be the environment the sensor is in. The rangefinder is atop of the sensor assembly. The Sony a7 cameras are all thinner than the M cameras and they do have video. (And image stabilization).

[-ph-]

People act like video has been a part of the M experience forever and Leica is crippling the camera by disposing of it. The truth is just the opposite. Leica has returned the M to its photographic roots after realizing that it was not the best platform for video, and they have created the SL to have a platform that can do video well. Best of both worlds.

 

 

At least for me (M9 owner), video has not been a part of the M experience yet. But as it shares most components with the SL, leaving it away seems like artificial crippling. And if you follow the M to its roots, I wonder why people accept a digital M in the first place. A true M is a film camera!

[digitalfx]

The rangefinder is not preventing the inclusion of video. If anything, it would be the environment the sensor is in. The rangefinder is atop of the sensor assembly. The Sony a7 cameras are all thinner than the M cameras and they do have video. (And image stabilization).

 

 

Thats not what I meant. What I mean is that to claim there are thinner cameras with video doesn't mean anything. 

 

Just because Sony has produced a thinner camera has nothing to do with the M design...its apples and oranges. How do any of us know whats possible to squeeze into this body? I cant imagine there is any free space inside the M10 its very dense. All this speculation is irrelevant...only Leica knows the answer.

 

 

But just because Sony can do it, doesn't mean Leica can...besides do we want a Sony or a Leica? Do we want Leica to make compromises in the body materials, etc.?

 

And just to be clear, Im not claiming they can or cant do it...just saying because Sony can do it with the A7 is irrelevant. Sony's model is completely different...and so is their R&D budget.

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Edited February 11, 2017 by digitalfx

[patashnik]

For the sake of argument: Prove it. You seem to have the finger on the pulse of the youth.

 

You were logged on today. Still waiting for some actual proof of your claims.

[edwardkaraa]

Sony a7 cameras are not thinner than the M cameras in practice. I can fit two Leica M bodies in the same space required for just one a7 body in my gear bag. Besides, the sensor on the a7 sits very close to the lens mount, leaving two thirds of the body thickness behind it free for whatever Sony decides to do with it. If Leica did this the M will double in thickness and everyone here will go bananas.

Edited February 12, 2017 by edwardkaraa

[adan]

Jayzus!

 

Leica currently offers EIGHT (8) different M cameras - more than at any time previously in their history.* If they were all the same, they'd only need two (one film and one digital). They are not all the same, for the simple reason that different photographers want (or don't want) different things.

 

Everyone is free to vote with their wallet, for one or another - or none. If you want video, pick one of the others - don't insist that the M10 has to been crammed into the same mold. Or else I'll start lobbying Leica to change the SL to allow shooting film.

 

It makes just as much (or as little) sense....

 

*I think the previous record (not counting cosmetic commemoratives) was 6, in the early sixties - M3, M2, MP (original), M1, MD, MD "Deutsche Post"

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Edited February 12, 2017 by adan

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Vec]

I posted this to another thread here, but there's even more debate here... so away we go.

 

There's no heat issue when recording video. Full stop. How do I say that with such confidence? Live view.

 

The camera works fine when you're using live view, right? What's going on with the camera when it's doing LV? Oh, right -- it's reading the full contents of the sensor, transforming it, doing some calculations for focus peaking, and shuffling the data off to either the visoflex or the rear display.

 

And when you press the shutter button, it manages to take a wonderful picture regardless of all of the "heat" that's been generated.

 

 

Recording video is now a hardware solution that's baked into the Maestro II processor. The same processor in the SL chugs along recording 4K without bursting into flames.

 

Either using LV can make the camera burst into flames (it doesn't) or you can take video if you wanted to and it was an option.

 

The only technical argument I can buy is the microphone took up too much volume or it's too hard to weather seal the microphone holes. As was pointed out elsewhere, that could be solved with a hot-shoe-mounted mic.

 

About reading the sensor: It simply must read the full resolution during EVF otherwise you would get different results for focus peaking depending on your level of zoom. In other words, focus peaking would be useless unless you were fully zoomed in. Hence, the full resolution would have to be read.

 

Bit depth? I can't be certain, but it's reading greater than 8-bits to provide the photo preview you get with the EVF. The characteristic S-curve transfer function is applied (highlight and shadow roll off) and you don't see banding in uniform colored areas. If you simply recorded what the EVF displayed people would be happy and this discussion would die.

Finally, recording: when you have something implemented in hardware, as is done with the Maestro II, it takes a surprisingly little amount of power to do video encoding now. We're only looking at 1080 for the M10 (though, in all honestly 4K should be almost as easy) and the number of devices that record 4K video now serves to provide an upper bound on the power dissipation for recording in a modern setting. Take, for instance, the Sony FDR X3000. (Amazing action cam if you're in the market!) With a 4.5 Wh battery, it can record around 50 minutes of 100mbps 4K video. And this is while it's also doing GPS and image stabilization and it's in a plastic enclosure that's fully sealed and essentially no heat sinking. It's inconceivable that Leica can't do something similar or better with only 1080 video. (The Sony lasts 125 minutes if it's recording 1080 in case you're curious - about 2.2 W including IS, GPS, compression, writing, SD card, etc.) It's amazing what you can do with custom hardware!

I can see a marketing meeting at Leica debating if the M10 should be allowed to take video... the argument against isn't a technical one, it's one of product differentiation. "If you want video, go ahead and buy an SL." That and take it away to appease people who hate the fact it can record video.

I don't think the average person was looking to use the M10 to do serious cinematography where you have everything rigged up and are outputting to an external recorder -- 10-bit HDMI in log format. It's for people (reporters?) who need to make a 20-second clip or a quick minute or two interview for some production. No one is arguing for exposing HDMI and stuff.

Full disclosure: I have an M10 and don't care it doesn't have video. I'm coming at this from a hardware engineering point of view.

 

I don't care what the marketing wonks at Leica say. This is not a technical reason.

-George

Edited February 12, 2017 by Vec