oronet commander Posted September 21, 2012 Share #1 Posted September 21, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am contemplating with increasing interest the new Leica-M. The sensor quality will be, of course, the main consideration for the success of the new cameras. Nevertheless, Leicas don't come cheap and are expected to give a long service life. EVFs nowadays are less than stellar but the technology is expected to improve quickly. Do we know anything about if Leica has mantained the EVF-socket specifications and related electronics open to cope with better EVFs in the future? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 Hi oronet commander, Take a look here Future upgradeability of new Leica M's EVF. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted September 21, 2012 Share #2 Posted September 21, 2012 I'm guessing, but it would make sense for the socket feeding the signal to the EVF to carry the full res image from the sensor. With improvements in EVF quality it should be possible to replace the EVF2 with an EVFx at a future date. The fact that this is an Olympus EVF is highly beneficial, as it will be a mainstream product, rather than a niche one, just for Leica. Therefore the possibility of upgrades is more likely, IMO. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted September 21, 2012 Share #3 Posted September 21, 2012 I'm guessing, but it would make sense for the socket feeding the signal to the EVF to carry the full res image from the sensor. 24 megapixels 24 times a second is a lot of data for a device with the size and power supply of the M to process. According to the Leica literature, the highest quality video mode is 1080p - which corresponds to about 1.7 megapixels at 3:2 aspect ratio, or about 2 megapixels at 16:9. I rather doubt that the video feed to the EVF is capable of much if anything more than that. But I'm guessing too. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboch Posted September 21, 2012 Share #4 Posted September 21, 2012 I agree to giardino and I think 1080p for example should be enough for an EVF for "the next 10 years". Also do not forget that the EVF stream needs to be processed for peak focus highlighting etc.which is not necessary for the video stream. So I guess the EVF stream resolution is smaller than 1080p. Well I think not even the majority of PC/MAC displays out there have a higher resolution than 1080p Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 21, 2012 Share #5 Posted September 21, 2012 Improvements can come in the form of increased dynamic range and compression which may be more useful than increased resolution. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbbeyFoto Posted September 21, 2012 Share #6 Posted September 21, 2012 I think this is an important question and look forward for further clarification. I doubt Leica can promise future proofing this aspect of the M as it is an area where we can expect rapid developments. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
1JB Posted September 21, 2012 Share #7 Posted September 21, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) The issues I had when using an evf were the size of the image, added steps and cumbersome aspects of the process. The detail of the image in the evf at normal size is so small that it will always require extra steps where accurate focus on a particulare area is required to get a desired effect regardless of how many pixels are in it. Just looking through the evf, manually focusing and clicking the shutter inevitably ended up in A mode and more generic photographs for me. To accurately focus it was quite often necessary to zoom in on the subject to overcome the lack of detail in the initial image, particularly as the DoF decreases. Zooming in and focusing must be seamless and fast for the photographer. You are using one hand to set aperture which affects the image on the evf, then you're trying to focus which starts without being zoomed in on the evf unless the lens is already very close to the spot you want to focus on, you then have to press or turn something to zoom in to a magnification that let's you get more precise focus, 4x, 8 16 etc, then focus and all the while try to hold the camera still as it the image bobs about on a zoomed in part of the image with no image stabilization and then capture the shot. These are limitations that I see as necessary to overcome. Unless there is a very accurate electronic focus confirmation for the spot that you are focusing on there will always be more steps to focusing with the evf than with the rangefinder. To get some sort of electronic confirmation means moving to focal point selection system with contrast detection for focusing with a manual lens. I've been there and done that and I'm not going back. Aside from macro work and the live view function I wouldn't bother with the evf compared to the rangefinder option. Just too many steps and too much time. Just my 2 cents, I know some people love the evf option for their work. Thank you Leica though for keeping the rangefinder and M moniker that it brings with it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted September 21, 2012 Share #8 Posted September 21, 2012 24 megapixels 24 times a second is a lot of data for a device with the size and power supply of the M to process. And before they could even begin processing it (which they probably couldn’t, given the limitations of the CPU), they would need to get that much data out of the sensor first. 24 MP at a decent frame rate – you can safely forget about that, for the time being anyway. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted September 21, 2012 Share #9 Posted September 21, 2012 +1 to post #7 by 1JB. To add, thus far none of the second-generation EVFs from other manufacturers will work on the first-generation cameras (eg, Panny LVF2 won't work on GF1). Doesn't prove that Olympus' next EVF won't work on the Mnothing, but it's all we can go on at this point. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 21, 2012 Share #10 Posted September 21, 2012 And before they could even begin processing it (which they probably couldn’t, given the limitations of the CPU), they would need to get that much data out of the sensor first. 24 MP at a decent frame rate – you can safely forget about that, for the time being anyway. So, how does the video function work then? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 21, 2012 Share #11 Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) I was using this EVF, Olympus VF-2, on an Olympus XZ1 for video last night, and even if it is quite decent as EVFs go, I really cannot see myself doing manual focus on long lenses using it. The overall impression is a bit like the Digilux3 viewfinder, small image (albeit reasonably sharp), diagonal edges shimmer, and the refresh rate makes even a walking person judder. Now I guess the firmware and data available may make a difference, as might the incorporation of focus peaking, but I sure hope Leica will be able to offer a last-generation OLED EVF soon. A Leica M deserves better. For me it is a deal-breaker, as the only reason to get the M would be the additional possibilities using long R lenses. Edited September 21, 2012 by jaapv 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 21, 2012 Share #12 Posted September 21, 2012 Is the quality of the image in the EVF partly a function of the quality of the information that feeds it? Thus, if an M feed is better than an Olympus one, the EVF image will be better. I don't know the answer, but I would be interested to know. I was impressed with the one I played with on the M, on Monday. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyedward Posted September 21, 2012 Share #13 Posted September 21, 2012 I imagine most M owners will prefer to use the rangefinder over the EVF and live view Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted September 21, 2012 Share #14 Posted September 21, 2012 I imagine most M owners will prefer to use the rangefinder over the EVF and live view You'd think, but from all the chatter it almost seems like it's being heralded like the Second Coming. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted September 21, 2012 Share #15 Posted September 21, 2012 I was using this EVF, Olympus EV2, on an Olympus XZ1 for video last night, and even if it is quite decent as EVFs go, I really cannot see myself doing manual focus on long lenses using it.The overall impression is a bit like the Digilux3 viewfinder, small image (albeit reasonably sharp), diagonal edges shimmer, and the refresh rate makes even a walking person judder. Now I guess the firmware and data available may make a difference, as might the incorporation of focus peaking, but I sure hope Leica will be able to offer a last-generation OLED EVF soon. A Leica M deserves better. For me it is a deal-breaker, as the only reason to get the M would be the additional possibilities using long R lenses. You're not at Photokina I thought you had hands-on with the new gear. Do we know for certain that the Olympus viewfinder will attach and work on the Mnothing? I was under impression it was just rebadged like the Panny EVF for DLux, but looking at them the Leica appears to have a completely different housing (reminiscent/evocative of the Visoflex). Having to pay Leica's doubled price would certainly be worse than just accepting the mediocre quality of that EVF. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted September 21, 2012 Share #16 Posted September 21, 2012 My problems with EFVs have not been the image quality - I only use it to compose, focus, and take the picture. My problem is the lag in updates that make manual focusing difficult. I've always focused an SLR by rapid movement of the focus ring, reversing when the sharpness decreases to quickly find the sharpest point. With a optical VF this happens in real time, but an EFV is WYSIWYHASA - "What You See Is What You Had A Second Ago" - so it takes much longer to get good focus than with an optical finder. This is affected by the processing time, the bandwidth to the VF, and the refresh rate of the system. As Reid points out the M refresh is 30/sec, and the best EFVs are now 60/sec which makes a big difference in the lag. I'm afraid the refresh rate is unlikely to be improved just by changing the external EFV. Now focus peaking may help, but that will still be a bit behind any movement of the focus ring - so it will still take re-learning how to focus. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted September 21, 2012 Share #17 Posted September 21, 2012 On learning that the M EVF was the same as for the X1/2, which is by now a relatively old Olympus product, I wondered what happens if the next Olympus EVF uses a different connector? Will Leica be able to adapt it, will they have to modify the cameras, or will they be stuck with the current EVF? If Olympus cease to produce it then what? I think these are fair questions to consider if buying an M to use with R lenses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyedward Posted September 21, 2012 Share #18 Posted September 21, 2012 The EVF lag would be unnaceptable when shooting people, whilst I found liveview on a d3x to be inaccurate unless used on a tripod. Perhaps I come across as being ungrateful and pedantic! With these two new features largely nullified by their shortcomings, the greatest benefits will be the decent LCD and new sensor Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyedward Posted September 21, 2012 Share #19 Posted September 21, 2012 On learning that the M EVF was the same as for the X1/2, which is by now a relatively old Olympus product, I wondered what happens if the next Olympus EVF uses a different connector? Will Leica be able to adapt it, will they have to modify the cameras, or will they be stuck with the current EVF? If Olympus cease to produce it then what? I think these are fair questions to consider if buying an M to use with R lenses. If the Olympus EVF isn't up to scratch, or is eventually discontinued, the responsibility for rectifying the matter will be with Leica. With the new M, Leica have demonstrated the ability to adapt and diversify, so perhaps an improved EVF may yet emerge from Leica themselves? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 21, 2012 Share #20 Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) It is afaik the same as the X2 viewfinder which is the same as the Olympus one. Edited September 21, 2012 by jaapv Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.