Erwin on the Upgrade

[innerimager]

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Interesting reading....Peter

The significance of LUP! (february 13, 2008) | Photography and image capture: the Leica technique and philosophy by Erwin Puts | Erwin Puts

[yeungkeefu]

thanks for sharing and worth to read!

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[sdai]

Is Erwin still Leica's hired gun?

 

I'm confused ... so he says that M is dead, upgrading from 1.33x to 1.0x is like loading TechPan instead of Tri-X.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Great I will take the tech pan. reality is if it goes full frame we gain MPX and in short more resolution and truth be told we get more resolution from the lenses which we are barely pushing right now. Without a engineering degree i would say we could go 22MPX on these leica lenses before we start going to a point of no return. The key in my book is we have a lot of elbow room , let's take advantage of it and the only reason i want full frame is to gain resolution.

[dseelig]

Erwin is a mixed bag and yes I am confused as well but is does not read as just a stright Leica endorsement. David

[pascal_meheut]

Leica needs to make a profit on current products and cannot afford to introduce products with a high risk of failure or ask for too high an investment to recoup in a reasonable period of time.

Sorry but do you know of a lot of photographic company introducing products with a high risk of failure recently ? And not trying to make a profit on current products ?

Too many have been pushed out of a very harsh market for the remaining to take risks.

It is also a statement that the evolution of the M will be incremental at best and that the M8 will be for the foreseeable future the last M camera in the M evolutionary chain.

 

The evolution of the M has been incremental since the very beginning, nothing new here.

 

Sorry, but once again, I'm not convinced by Puts analysis: I see little added value here.

 

[lct]

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E. Puts: "the evolution of the M will be incremental at best and that the M8 will be for the foreseeable future the last M camera in the M evolutionary chain."

 

Die Welt (free translation): "Leica CEO Mr Lee, a former IBM manager, follows a three-stage plan... On the one hand, there is a M9 camera viewfinder with full-size sensor... Moreover, a R10-reflex camera with oversized chip and auto focus... And finally, a kind of "small" digital M... Solms developers are under high pressure with those models which guarantee the long-term survival of the camera manufacturer..."

[marknorton]

Is Erwin still Leica's hired gun?

 

Loose cannon, more like.

[mjh]

E. Puts: "the evolution of the M will be incremental at best and that the M8 will be for the foreseeable future the last M camera in the M evolutionary chain."

That’s taking Leica’s statement about the “perpetual update program” and giving it a pessimistic turn of phrase. If he desperately wants to see it that way …

 

Die Welt (free translation): "Leica CEO Mr Lee, a former IBM manager, follows a three-stage plan... On the one hand, there is a M9 camera viewfinder with full-size sensor... Moreover, a R10-reflex camera with oversized chip and auto focus... And finally, a kind of "small" digital M... Solms developers are under high pressure with those models which guarantee the long-term survival of the camera manufacturer..."

That article apparently relied a great deal on speculation and rumours voiced in this very forum; there has been no announcement of an M9 by Leica.

[lct]

...That article apparently relied a great deal on speculation and rumours voiced in this very forum; there has been no announcement of an M9 by Leica.

Die Welt is one of the most important newspapers in Germany if i'm not wrong.

Any denial from Leica to your knowledge?

[innerimager]

What struck me as interesting was the analysis that said since the market for a new model d-M (if I may coin an abbreviation) is so small, Leica is putting it's strategy into incremental improvements of the M8. I think he has a valid argument. The customer base for the d-M is so much smaller and so less interested in new for new sake as compared to dSLRs, added to that the range of improvements is so limited as it excludes most of the computer based functions of dSLRs people lust for, it would be hard to get enough of the current owners to trade up, and harder to get new owners at an even higher price. For me, the only improvement that would make me want to spend significant dollars would be a drastically improved high iso capability. That probably means full frame, for the larger pixels. If Leica can pull off making this an upgrade, they'll do very well even at $3000 + 2 year warranty in my opinion. best...Peter

[mjh]

Die Welt is one of the most important newspapers in Germany if i'm not wrong.

Any denial from Leica to your knowledge?

Important or not (and it is clearly not as important as, say, the Süddeutsche or the FAZ), the article in question was based to a great extent on speculation and rumours, mixed with actual statements by Steven K. Lee (but those were much less specific). This speculation became obsolete when Leica published their perpetual upgrade program. The message is clear: No M9 for the forseeable future, the M8 is here to stay and will be continually upgraded, probably to a point that might otherwise have been reached with an M9.

[lct]

Important or not (and it is clearly not as important as, say, the Süddeutsche or the FAZ), the article in question was based to a great extent on speculation and rumours, mixed with actual statements by Steven K. Lee (but those were much less specific). This speculation became obsolete when Leica published their perpetual upgrade program. The message is clear: No M9 for the forseeable future, the M8 is here to stay and will be continually upgraded, probably to a point that might otherwise have been reached with an M9.

So you see a contradiction between the "three-stage plan" attributed to Leica by Die Welt and the "perpetual upgrade program" really? Where does it lie in your opinion? The upgrade program refers only to the "M8" doesn't it?

[mjh]

So you see a contradiction between the "three-stage plan" attributed to Leica by Die Welt and the "perpetual upgrade program" really? Where does it lie in your opinion? The upgrade program refers only to the "M8" doesn't it?

There is no contradiction. The third step in the plan is supposed to be “new customers and new products”, and that’s where the article (published more than two months ago, btw) ventures into the realm of speculation. Still, the author is quite upfront about this: “Zur Zukunft der Leica-Modellpalette verrät das Unternehmen wenig.” The only new product that Leica tentatively confirmed was the R10; there was no official word about either an M9 or a “small M“.

[lct]

So we agree that there is no contradiction between the 3-stage-plan and the perpetual upgrade, but how could the former be "obsolete" then?

If there are no contradictions between the 2 plans i see only one possibility: Whatever real names the new cameras could have, the upgrade plan is for the M8 and the 3-stage one for the M9, R10 and digital CM or CL.

Unless there is a denial from Leica that Die Welt are a bunch of liars of course.

[wparsonsgisnet]

You've got to give the guy points for going out on a limb.

 

It's a pretty strong prediction to say that there won't be a next model. Justifying it by cost analysis isn't very technical. Stuff just gets cheaper.

 

There are way too many unknowns in the future: Foveon might catch on, we may get a chip that doesn't need a shutter (please!), Leica might fold the RF and double its length giving us long lenses; I'm just getting started. In any case, less mechanics in the body would help Leica and us.

 

Strong words. If I were to look into the future, I'd see Leica fixing the problem with lenses that get delivered with bad focus. The lenses are their grip on uniqueness. Their greatest obstacle may be the lack of autofocus for an SLR.

 

I agree that the LUP is a brilliant strategy -- and *validates* our choice of the digibody.

[sdai]

There is one thing for sure, folks.

 

If every newspaper reader is so damn serious about photography, "The Sun" has taken the world.

[Guest jimmy pro]

The upgrade program is an inducement for current owners to hang on to their cams, and for future owners to buy used cams and upgrade them. Neither of which is the kind of business plan that would get approved by people of Lee's and Kaufmann's considerable experience and savvy. So my take is that it's just more marketing spin...Leica's been replacing too many shutters under warranty, or else the M8 shutter (a carryover from the R9 which is probably no longer in actual production) is too expensive and they're buying-in a more widely used generic, and so let's sell everybody a new shutter, and while we're at it, a $50 glass crystal. Let everyone think the M8 will be upgraded to full-frame, who's gonna sue us if we say in the end it wasn't possible and here's the M9. That's the long and short of it. When I see a full frame chip available to upgrade my M8 I'll believe it.

 

As to Putz, well, he really must love the sound of his own voice...but then don't we all...but maybe not enough to run our own websites

[mjh]

So we agree that there is no contradiction between the 3-stage-plan and the perpetual upgrade, but how could the former be "obsolete" then?

Not Leica’s three-stage-plan, but that plan isn’t very specific anyway. It’s the article’s speculative part relying on outdated rumours that’s obsolete.

 

Unless there is a denial from Leica that Die Welt are a bunch of liars of course.

Everyone is free to speculate … (I hesitate saying anything about Die Welt in general, but it isn’t my newspaper of choice. If I wanted a conservative newspaper, I’d prefer the FAZ any day.)

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[wattsy]

he really must love the sound of his own voice...but then don't we all...

 

Indeed. Didn't you used to post using the 'Vinay' nom de plume?