Post-Processing with M240

[mongrelnomad]

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So, I've had the M240 for coming up to a month now. As a camera, it's astonishingly good. However, I can't seem to get on with the RAW fils in post. They seem grainy and unforgiving and not quite sharp ooc (whereas M9 files needed no sharpening or noise reduction at base ISO, and generally came out of the camera looking great).

 

As post is as important as the camera, those of you who really feel you have understood these files, how do you go about getting a suitable image from the RAW file? (Lightroom or Aperture advice equally welcome - I use Aperture through personal preference, but have got used to Lightroom for the MM files).

 

Thanks!

[StephenPatterson]

...I can't seem to get on with the RAW fils in post. They seem grainy and unforgiving and not quite sharp ooc

 

Sorry, that was not my experience. I found the M240 files to be wonderfully clean under ISO1600 and still very useful at ISO3200. Also the files allow for pulling shadows with considerably less noise than the M9 (within reason). I think you may be having other issues (lens/rangefinder/camera shake).

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[mongrelnomad]

Sorry, that was not my experience. I found the M240 files to be wonderfully clean under ISO1600 and still very useful at ISO3200. Also the files allow for pulling shadows with considerably less noise than the M9 (within reason). I think you may be having other issues (lens/rangefinder/camera shake).

 

It happens with all my lenses, so I think the rangefinder may be out of alignment. I'm planning to send the full caboodle (M240, MM, M9 + 10+ lenses) to Solms, but wanted to see if there was anything I could do now in the meantime (other than stopping-down and cranking up the ISO).

[Brett Cambern]

It happens with all my lenses, so I think the rangefinder may be out of alignment. I'm planning to send the full caboodle (M240, MM, M9 + 10+ lenses) to Solms, but wanted to see if there was anything I could do now in the meantime (other than stopping-down and cranking up the ISO).

 

With 3 M bodies and 10+ lenses being shipped, you're going to need a boatload of insurance!!!

[StephenPatterson]

It happens with all my lenses, so I think the rangefinder may be out of alignment...

 

Have you checked the rangefinder against the live view focus peaking at different distances?

[terrycym]

Try JPG and see how they come out before sending anything off for service.

[digitalfx]

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What software are you using for post processing?

[terrycym]

ACR or DOP

[Guest WPalank]

If the 240, MM and M9 are all producing fuzzy images, a trip to the Optometrist may save you a lot of time and anguish once they all return. Not to mention the email from Solms that says, "Everything looks good, what do you want us to do again?". But in Deutsch.

 

But really, owning a nice tripod and camera mounting plate, then shooting a lens chart mounted to a cheap light stand is all you need to confirm any unreliabilities from hand holding.

[CaptZoom]

So, I've had the M240 for coming up to a month now. As a camera, it's astonishingly good. However, I can't seem to get on with the RAW fils in post. They seem grainy and unforgiving and not quite sharp ooc (whereas M9 files needed no sharpening or noise reduction at base ISO, and generally came out of the camera looking great).

 

It happens with all my lenses, so I think the rangefinder may be out of alignment. I'm planning to send the full caboodle (M240, MM, M9 + 10+ lenses) to Solms, but wanted to see if there was anything I could do now in the meantime (other than stopping-down and cranking up the ISO).

 

If you're only having trouble with the M240 files, why are you considering sending the M9 and the MM? If you've got a camera repair shop near by, take the M240 to they. They can quickly tell you if the RF is out of alignment without opening up the camera.

Edited July 3, 2013 by CaptZoom

[250swb]

The first thing to consider is do you have the latest version of ACR?

 

The second thing is that ACR isn't really post processing, more like pre-processing the image so you can fiddle with it in Lightroom. The fact they come out looking less sharp is possibly because your M240 has a greater number of pixels than your M9, and while you shouldn't really apply anything other than a small amount of sharpening before the image is finished, you may need slightly more default input sharpening than your M9 gets in ACR. But I would leave sharpening alone, you only need to know it will sharpen up later, not see it fully sharpened, and it will only cause artefacts and degrade the image if you do it before further processing. You might want to use the 'Clarity' slider in ACR as this adjusts the micro contrast, making the image seem sharper and crisper but without actually sharpening it. It helps define detail.

 

For further post processing I recommend the Nik Suite, available from Google and used as a plugin for Lightroom. In particular the Viveza component is great for anybody who hasn't done much post processing as it keeps things simple. I think the Nik Suite is still only $150 and is a collection of what was a set of software costing many hundreds of dollars.

 

Steve

Edited July 3, 2013 by 250swb

[mongrelnomad]

If the 240, MM and M9 are all producing fuzzy images, a trip to the Optometrist may save you a lot of time and anguish once they all return. Not to mention the email from Solms that says, "Everything looks good, what do you want us to do again?". But in Deutsch.

 

But really, owning a nice tripod and camera mounting plate, then shooting a lens chart mounted to a cheap light stand is all you need to confirm any unreliabilities from hand holding.

 

MM and M9 are tack-sharp with all lenses (after much to-ing and -fro-ing in the past). I am seldom in Europe and would prefer to send everything for an express service than return to Israel (where sending anything to Solms always results in a hefty VAT bill on return no matter how much evidence I supply to prove all the equipment is used and mine) only to find some nasty and unintended surprise.

 

And even shooting at F22 and fast shutter speeds the images seem soft and require sharpening.

[250swb]

 

And even shooting at F22 and fast shutter speeds the images seem soft and require sharpening.

 

At f/22 you are well into a lens phenomena called diffraction, it gradually gets worse as you stop the lens down, so your pictures will look less sharp than say at f/8

 

Steve

[mongrelnomad]

I think I found the reason - from Thorsten Overgaard's long review of the M240. I'm so used to the way the M9 (and the CCD sensor) renders that I'm expecting the same fo the M240's CMOS.

 

"One of the reasons CCD looks so film-like is that the noise pattern is completely randomised. On CMOS it is uniform and you can always notice the fixed pattern of noise imprinted on the image. A CCD sensor has grain like film and it moves in the same way as film grain."

 

I've never really used noise reduction before and it's an unwelcome skill... But... anyone got any advice to get started?

[Jeff S]

Are you making prints to assess results, or just looking at screen shots?

 

Jeff

[mongrelnomad]

Are you making prints to assess results, or just looking at screen shots?

 

Jeff

 

Just screen shots. First prints will be in the next few weeks...

[Guest malland]

...from..Thorsten Overgaard's long review of the M240..."One of the reasons CCD looks so film-like is that the noise pattern is completely randomised. On CMOS it is uniform and you can always notice the fixed pattern of noise imprinted on the image. A CCD sensor has grain like film and it moves in the same way as film grain."...

Anyone know whether this is really true and, if so, why the is the CCD noise pattern randomised and the CMOS one uniform?

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

Bangkok Obvious [WIP]

Eggleston said that he was "at war with the obvious"...

[Jeff S]

Just screen shots. First prints will be in the next few weeks...

 

Until then I would reserve any judgment or conclusion.

 

Jeff

[Guest malland]

In post #17, I asked whether the following Thorsten Overgaard statement in the review of the M240 is correct:

One of the reasons CCD looks so film-like is that the noise pattern is completely randomised. On CMOS it is uniform and you can always notice the fixed pattern of noise imprinted on the image. A CCD sensor has grain like film and it moves in the same way as film grain.

Any thoughts on the following answer from Ron Scheffler in another forum?

Regarding the question about Thorsten Overgaard's statement about the differences between CCD and CMOS noise - I don't believe CMOS is less random in noise quality than CCD, rather it depends a lot on the individual camera/sensor. The biggest problem might be underlying banding characteristics that subtly become more obvious as files are pushed in post. The M240's sensor appears to have this problem as do those from the Canon 5DII and 5DIII. Banding can be a problem with the M9 too, but might not be strictly a sensor fault, rather a result of complications involving interference within the entire electronics system. My old CCD sensor Canon 1D also had banding problems.

 

It's only a guess, but one difference that might lead him to this conclusion is how low ISO noise is suppressed in the M9 vs. M240. My feeling is the M9's low ISO files always show fine luminance noise while the M240's seem a bit cleaner and more in-line with what one sees from other current cameras. It's possible the sensor software for the M240 and other CMOS cameras apply some noise reduction at all ISOs that results in a somewhat less randomized looking noise structure for some observers?

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

Paris au rhythme de Basquiat and Other Poems [download link for book project]

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Hallo,

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[jaapv]

I think he has a point, but rather than "blaming" the camera firmware I would look at the on-sensor noise reduction that CMOS sensors must of necessity have.