mirror slap, anyone?

[smokysun]

in this discussion and request for new leica cameras, silent operation seems to have been ignored. there's tremendous advantage in most situations to the d2 in this regard. (and the d-lux 2). i would like to see more clamor for a d3. same lens, better sensor (higher iso capability), and better body build (does the lc1 really have a metal body while the d2 plastic?), faster raw. most estimates give the starting cost of the m8 5000 dollars. i want a d3 for under 2000. is anyone listening!
hope so,
wayne
ps. other advantages: true live view, no dust on sensor, no changing lenses. you work with what you've got.

[earleygallery]

D2 is a metal body AFAIK. You need to be patient and await Photokina I think...

[marknorton]

The Digilux 2 does indeed have a metal body. Here it is in its naked glory when I took mine to bits...

[Bob Ross]

Neat shots Mark.We'll all be anxiously waiting for similar shots when you diassemble your M8....LOL!
The last time I took a camera apart was in 1964 when I repaired the shutter on a Contax II....never again

[marknorton]

Hah! Not so easy, the Panasonic/D2 comes apart with a single screwdriver, taking an M apart is rather more involved! What this does show though (the main circuit board is removed which runs across the back of camera) is that there is a lot of unused space. I expect the M8 to be entirely different, very densely packed.

Originally Posted by marknorton

The Digilux 2 does indeed have a metal body. Here it is in its naked glory when I took mine to bits...

Not for those of a nervous disposition!

Back in January on a cold, wet Sunday afternoon my youngest son (8 yrs) was bored stupid so I gave hime a set of jewellers screwdrivers and my old dusty Olympus Camedia C-860L 1.3Mb and told him to take it apart.

Kept him quiet for hours. Eventually he called me up to his bedroom and proudly showed me all the parts neatly laid out on his desk. Did a good job too.

His face was a picture when I said, "Well done. Now put it back together again!"

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by marknorton

Hah! Not so easy, the Panasonic/D2 comes apart with a single screwdriver, taking an M apart is rather more involved! What this does show though (the main circuit board is removed which runs across the back of camera) is that there is a lot of unused space. I expect the M8 to be entirely different, very densely packed.

Hi Mark,
I wonder how much of that unused space was for heat management? I does show that the size can be reduced to an M7 benchmark, if they wanted to. I did read that camera designers were grumbling about the on-board flash capacitor taking up so much room and that cameras would be smaller if they didn't have to include the flash system. What did you find in the way of the on-board flash on the D2? The M8 would gain space with no flash, but the processing for pushing around 10MP images fast would be more sizeable. No AF, mirror mechanisms or complex martix metering processors might help, too.
Bob

[marknorton]

Here's a couple more, including that flash capacitor which - if you ever take your camera apart you should discharge. Mine had over 150v on it...

[Bob Ross]

150v!! that'll give you a jump! From your pictures, the capacitor resides in the lower left, under the EVF and that is considerable volume. The subject came up on why couldn't Oly build an OM size body for the 4/3rds system. If the M8 is, indeed, M7 size, the challenge will be made...:-) I did read that Pentax took on the size challege by folding the circuit boards for their *istD things.
Bob

[marknorton]

Yes, the flash board has the connections on that side of the camera and, as you say occupies the space below the EVF.

For the main board, what you're seeing is two sides of the same circuit board. The black round objects in the centre picture are small transformers, a characteristic of the different supply voltages required by a CCD sensor.

If you look at the 50 Year Leica M book, there's a picture of the M7's electronics which are built on a flexible circuit board and, as you say, it's "folded" around the contours of the camera. The approach here is rather less expensive and of course, the whole board can be replaced very easily.

Even if the M8 is the same nominal size as an M7, I would not be surprised if there was a bulge for the LCD display on the back, a bit like the DMR.

[wbesz]

Just being curious here Mark, why did you pull your camera to bits?

[ho_co]

Originally Posted by marknorton

Even if the M8 is the same nominal size as an M7, I would not be surprised if there was a bulge for the LCD display on the back, a bit like the DMR.

Mark--it has been my understanding that the digital camera will be about the size of the M7 with attached motor, though I heard that several months back. And indeed, I seem to recall that the person I was talking to said there would be the additional thickness of the LCD.

Am I the only one expecting the camera to be the size of M + motor?

--HC

[lct]

Excerp of 'Viewfinder' as quoted by Gman here:

...The camera will have the same form factor as the M (M7/TTL or classic unspecified), will be 1.5mm thicker than the M due to the LCD and controls on the back...

[marknorton]

Originally Posted by wbesz

Just being curious here Mark, why did you pull your camera to bits?

Didn't you take things apart when you were a kid? The only difference here is that this "kid" is 51 and they go back together. My D2 is none the worse for its experience!

Seriously, I did it to convince myself that upgrading cameras to new sensors is not a practical proposition.

Andy suggested a while back that the focus mount of the new camera might be proud of the camera to allow the shutter and focal plane to move forwards so that what is behind it - the sensor, sensor mounting and LCD - does not protrude too far back. With the thought that the macro adapter will work, that suggests the lens mount will be flush, so space behind the focal plane is going to be at a premium.

[starwatcher]

but one big advantage, you know how to clean your sensor

best - Klaus

[wbesz]

"Didn't you take things apart when you were a kid? The only difference here is that this "kid" is 51 and they go back together. My D2 is none the worse for its experience!"

You have done well to get it all back, and by the way, yes I did pull a camera (Kodak box) to bits when I was about 9. Never worked again, but that was fine because I could not afford to run it anyway.

[geoff]

Originally Posted by smokysun

in this discussion and request for new leica cameras, silent operation seems to have been ignored. there's tremendous advantage in most situations to the d2 in this regard. (and the d-lux 2). i would like to see more clamor for a d3. same lens, better sensor (higher iso capability), and better body build (does the lc1 really have a metal body while the d2 plastic?), faster raw. most estimates give the starting cost of the m8 5000 dollars. i want a d3 for under 2000. is anyone listening!
hope so,
wayne
ps. other advantages: true live view, no dust on sensor, no changing lenses. you work with what you've got.

Wayne,

You raise a number of points. One, where is Leica headed digitally with regards to minimal shutter noise. Two, did the Leica Digilux 2 have a metal body. Three, there is a need for a “true Digilux 2 successor.”

The ability to shoot unobtrusively has been one of the mainstay features of the Leica brand. This advantage is made possible in M Series cameras due to both their rangefinder nature (lack of mirror) and deployment of a cloth shutter. The Digilux went even further, being nearly silent due to it’s electronic shutter.

However, the future of a quiet digital camera, that offers full analog manual controls, is in question.

First, the forthcoming digital M reportedly, due to technical requirements, will use a metal shutter as opposed the a cloth one. How much noise will this introduce? Second, the fate of the Digilux line is unknown.

I do not agree that the Panasonic Lumix DMC-L1, with it’s SLR design and limited live LCD preview, could be considered an adequate successor to, or be used as a replacement for, the LC1, nor be the basis for a Digilux 3. The virtually silent electronic shutter coupled with full analog manual controls and live LCD preview defined the Digilux in its own right as a completely new photographic tool separate from rangefinders, SLRs, view cameras, and pocket point-and-shoots.

Without a cloth shutter digital M, or true Digilux offering, there will be no more available options to work digital and unobtrusively and still have the ergonomics and quickness that full analog manual controls provide.

I feel that neither the Panasonic Lumix DMC-L1 nor the forthcoming digital M offers the functionality to met the shooting requirements that I or many others have for a photographic tool. Including the combination of:

• Silent and unobtrusive operation that only a electronic shutter can provide.
• 2/3” Sensor for wide depth-of-field which is just as advantageous for some as shallow depth-of-field is for others.
• True Live LCD preview that enables non eye level framing.
• Self-contained and relatively compact all-in-one system with affixed zoom lens.
• Fast lens (ƒ2.0)

All of the above features already have existed with the Leica Digilux 2 and Panasonic Lumix DMC-LC1. The areas for improvement should build upon and enhance the functionality already available, not negate it. This should include:

• A very large image buffer as one way to facilitate burst Raw capture and dramatically improved shot-to-shot performance.
• Support for the SDHC format.
• Venus Engine III which benefits include:

• Reduce noise
• Faster processing
• Reduced power drain

• Utilize the latest EVF technology
• Improved wear of finish:

• Less scratch prone
• Rubber that does not change shape and loss adhesion

With regards to the Digilux 2 body, like the Panasonic Lumix DMC-LC1, it was nether completely metal or plastic. My understanding is that the body was actually made of a Matsushita proprietary polymer suspended magnesium material (anyone familiar with the Panasonic Toughbooks?). This is a very durable and resilient substance that can be easily molded into unique shapes too improbable and, or costly by other means. I have repeatedly heard of reports of the cameras holding up under extreme punishment. The paint and underlining primer and protective coating may scratch and wear off but the case does not crack or chip. The Panasonic Lumix DMC-LC1 was made of the same material but with a different finish than the Digilux 2.

[smokysun]

hi geoff,
thanks for the great summary of the issues. i agree with you on all counts. i've seriously considered getting a second d2 while they are available at all (and i'm babying the one i have).
the kind of upgrades and the camera you describe exactly the one i wish for. i hope the folks at leica are listening. (sean reid has always said they monitor comments on the form, and tho it's no longer their 'official' site, i hope they still do.)
thanks again. you've helped define my own needs.
wayne