chris_tribble Posted October 10, 2009 Share #1 Posted October 10, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I was working today with the M9 (mostly 28 + 50) paired with the 5D2 (85 L 1.2 + 70-200 L 2.8) at an event called the Big Draw run by the Guardian and King's Place (UK national newspaper + concert hall/arts venue). When I started to work on the images this evening I was not happy, so looked back at the default settings I was using. (NB - the light in the room with the kid working with the lightbox was really low...) I've learned. 1/ for the moment, the embedded profile provided with the M9 works better for me than the one that Thorsten's colleague kindly provided - I've reverted to it. 2/ I'd been setting the brightness in LR to too low a value and have reverted to the default 50 3/ a small amount of desaturation of reds was all that was needed to make skin tones look a lot better. 4/ 400 and 800 ISO are really nice to use... I'm OK with these results... Interested to know what settings people are using in calibration / colour. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/99755-m9-learning-some-lessons/?do=findComment&comment=1069963'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 Hi chris_tribble, Take a look here M9 - learning some lessons. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Rick Posted October 10, 2009 Share #2 Posted October 10, 2009 Hey Chris, I'm just curious, do you think that these pictures are pretty well color balanced without any/much magenta tint? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share #3 Posted October 11, 2009 Ricky - it was late last night when I posted and there's clearly a problem... I'm OK with the ones below... sorry for spreading any confusion! re-posting + one extra. Again - these are torture shots - you can see the range of lighting that I was working with. The reality of most of these of course is that to get colour right across the board would have needed a couple of off camera light sources at least. As this would have been impossible in the context, I'm pleased that things went so well. For the record, the 5D2 was struggling to get things right as well. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/99755-m9-learning-some-lessons/?do=findComment&comment=1070217'>More sharing options...
biglouis Posted October 11, 2009 Share #4 Posted October 11, 2009 Chris Hmmm. This looks just like the results I got in my project in-school a few months back. Lots of beech/oak veneer tables, low light and primary coloured paper. I kept getting awful colour casts, and overwhelming yellows in the pictures, using my M8. I did cure the problems by taking a white point in LR off the walls, which like these were the universal industrial ivory/cream shade in every classroom. I also reduced the yellow saturation which countered the reflection from the tables. I can't share my results at present as I am only just beginning to get permission from the people involved to use their pictures. I have to say that working with the M8 was a tortuous process. At one point I was very close to going out and buying a D700 and Nikkor 50/1.4 to complete the project. I was working all the time at iso640 or 1250 and had a lot of problems with colour noise. However, once I cured the white balance problems I got some very decent results. I did vow, however, I would never use the M8 again for an 'indoor' project. So, I'm interested in the results you get. Looking at these, I'm still not convinced that the next time I want to do an indoor project that my best solution would be to get a D700 or a 5DMkII. LouisB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 11, 2009 Share #5 Posted October 11, 2009 I'm sorry to say it but I wouldn't be happy with any of these shots. My opinion is that you should have been much more proactive with regards to the light and less worried about fixing stuff in post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted October 11, 2009 Share #6 Posted October 11, 2009 How did you set the white balance - auto, preset or manual? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 11, 2009 Share #7 Posted October 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I was working today with the M9 (mostly 28 + 50) paired with the 5D2 (85 L 1.2 + 70-200 L 2.8) at an event called the Big Draw run by the Guardian and King's Place (UK national newspaper + concert hall/arts venue). When I started to work on the images this evening I was not happy, so looked back at the default settings I was using. (NB - the light in the room with the kid working with the lightbox was really low...) I've learned. 1/ for the moment, the embedded profile provided with the M9 works better for me than the one that Thorsten's colleague kindly provided - I've reverted to it. 2/ I'd been setting the brightness in LR to too low a value and have reverted to the default 50 3/ a small amount of desaturation of reds was all that was needed to make skin tones look a lot better. 4/ 400 and 800 ISO are really nice to use... I'm OK with these results... Interested to know what settings people are using in calibration / colour. Hi Chris, Have you tried C1 as well? Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted October 11, 2009 Share #8 Posted October 11, 2009 Chris, I've been using the M9 in mixed lighting situations for 3 wedding shoots now and found it is critical to do a custom WB in each change of light temp. Not only does it help nail the color balance, it provides a more accurate exposure indication when checking the LCD. Strong tungsten cast tricks the eye into underexposure which is not desirable with any digital camera, but more so with CCD sensor camera which fairs less well at high ISOs. In my experience to date, nailing both WB and exposure makes use of ISO 800 to 1250 quite feasible for the type of work you posted in this thread. As Sean mentioned, C1 is very good ... but in my work with up to 800 shots to move through my workflow, I've zeroed in Lightroom 2 to do a highly respectable job while being a much faster post process with all the adjustment brushes available in a non-destructive manner. The magenta/red cast is easy to adjust in the "Camera Calibration" which you can keep as a default to apply in batch sync to the files in need of further adjustment of skin tones. Hope this helps a little bit. -Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted October 11, 2009 Share #9 Posted October 11, 2009 You have a color balance problem. My opinion is setting it manually or setting it to conditions at hand ( fluorescent, sun, cloudy, etc) gives far superior results. Trying to fix fluorescent later later is hard work. At a minimun, put a grey card in a test shot so you have something to balance on First you had it magenta, then green, way green. ACR and LR have an automatic white bal tool, upper left in CS3. Click on a white or grey tone with the tool. Pure white will not work well. As much as we dislike it, the workd is using all kinds of different fluorescent tubes and mercury vapor. I have had decent luck under high color rendering fluorescent tubes such as what Calumet Photo uses in their store. Other places use cheap old tubes lacking magenta. Always use raw to save as much data as possible or further correction in these kinds of conditions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share #10 Posted October 11, 2009 Hi - thanks for comments. Some thoughts (and I'm having to work out why I'm feeling so prickly here (). In my own defence, I suppose I feel the need to say that I do know that shooting RAW as a default is sensible practice, and I do know (a bit) about colour management, so some of the suggestions made here are things I'm really aware of. I'm also aware of how to set a white point with the eyedropper in LR, how to batch work and how to impose pre-sets on a set of images pre or post-import. Reflections are: 1/ I was sharing the shots which arose from the most difficult lighting situation. The problem was that in this particular room there were at least FOUR different light sources + at least 8 areas of contrasting light intensity. While I do take the point about setting a manual white balance for individual scenes,in these reportage conditions AWB and fixing the RAW in post felt the most feasible way of working. I'm also still not sure how useful a grey card would have been (or doing a manual WB with a sheet of white paper for that matter) - but I will try it next time I'm working here... I'd really welcome any additional comments on this. 2/ the M9 and the 5D2 both struggled. The crops below give an idea of what common results in identical light situations look like. Both pairs relate to the same scenes. In one the family was of Indian Asian origin, in the other the boy was from an Anglo-African family. 3/ The 5D2 (with 70-200/2.8 or 85/1.2) was more capable in AWB than the M9 in mixed light, although it wasn't so good under straight tungsten. The last shot was under mixed - and in a truly awful part of the room for light. The 5D2 did OK. Lessons for me? Still considering which is better - gray card or white paper for in camera manual WB, or setting a WhiBal in a shot in each scene - I lean towards the latter... Issues for Leica? I still feel that calibration and AWB can be improved under mixed artificial light... Final outcome - my client just got back to me saying: "These are amazing pictures that really capture the essence of the event." She's on the editorial team of a national paper so for news work they're OK. I agree that for fashion or weddings these wouldn't work. For reportage they're usable. Sh*t - I'm clearly still feeling defensive! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/99755-m9-learning-some-lessons/?do=findComment&comment=1070738'>More sharing options...
GlennB Posted October 11, 2009 Share #11 Posted October 11, 2009 Hey Chris, I work at a daily paper and know too well your working conditions evident in your posted photos. Your images are certainly useable with only a little post processing imho. Those posting about setting the white balance manually probably haven't had to work under those conditions. From what I can see, the available light white balance in that room is all over the place, so where would you set the white ? In your situation I would have probably used a strobe to even out the brightness range. As to gelling the strobe, I don't need to do that on my Canon 1Dmk2 for some reason. My Nikon shooting co-workers on the other hand WOULD have to put a green gel on their strobes. On the Leica, I don't have a good strobe to work with (only a SF24d which is too low powered to bounce off walls or ceilings) so I don't know how that would work. To me, getting the best shot is more important, in journalism/editorial use, than absolute correct white balance. When I have to work fast, getting close to correct is good enough. Just my 2cents,YMMV etc..... Glenn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sclamb Posted October 11, 2009 Share #12 Posted October 11, 2009 Hi Chris, Have you tried C1 as well? Cheers, Sean I find C1 much better than LR, and the minimising of purple fringing with wide angle lenses in C1 is vastly superior to LR. LR also tends to create some smearing that is not evident in C1. Adobe have some work to do for M9 DNGs. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share #13 Posted October 11, 2009 Hey Chris, I work at a daily paper and know too well your working conditions evident in your posted photos. Your images are certainly useable with only a little post processing imho. Just my 2cents,YMMV etc..... Glenn Glenn - the 2 cents gratefully received. Strobing was unfortunately impossible in this case as we'd agreed on no flash for the gig... I thought of putting the sFill on the SF 24D, but it wasn't possible in this case - so it became one of those situations where getting some usable images was better than getting none.. The reason for posting though continues to be to learn lessons - and there have been some valuable contributions from posters - so thanks ladies and gentlemen... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted October 11, 2009 Share #14 Posted October 11, 2009 Lessons for me? Still considering which is better - gray card or white paper for in camera manual WB, or setting a WhiBal in a shot in each scene - I lean towards the latter... Thanks for a very interesting contribution. Doing a series like that I could work with auto WB and adjust the few shots I would have to actually use. But I would prefer WhiBal so as to set one white balance for all shots. Like fotografz I prefer to do a new manual WB for each location, especially if it's a big shoot where the outcome is a medium large series of pictures. What I save in adjustments in Lightroom is easily worth the trouble adjusting WB manually. And when I did a wedding shoot with daylight lamps in one room and atmosphere with tungsten in another (and people asked me to come to the other room again to just shoot aunt whatever - I felt the need for two camera bodies so I had one for each color temperature). In any case, the point is this: I probably would have taken a manual WB using a WhiBal card by the table, most likely placing it in upright position like a face by the table. The reason for this is that I would then have ONE stable datum for all the pictures. The boy with the lighttable would need adjustment not to turn out blue in the face, and probably some of the others. But as the main action would be by the table, that's the temperature I would aim for. But it's not so much that which is the point. The point is having ONE stable datum to go from, instead of 20 light temperatures throughout the series (or whatever the auto WB would end up with measuring). Problem with the WhiBal in the picture would be; where to put it, and which direction to turn it (as it would pick up light from that direction). In any case it's not easy but I like the atmosphere and color space of this series. And as there's no "Auto Happy Editor" function on any camera, you can take that as a compliment Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted October 11, 2009 Share #15 Posted October 11, 2009 Is it just me or are there other people out there that also believe that there is no such thing as the 'right' or correctly white balanced color? Neutral white under all circumstances makes no sense at all to me. Set to daylight (5400 K or so) if it is more or less in the daytime, or tungsten indoors in the evening (fluorescent in some cases) would be the way to start and then you can do some minor tweaking on a whole series to get the 'mood' the way you want it. Auto white balancing the whole lot is a deadly sin. Edit: From the pictures posted here I much prefer the first two ones - but that is a subjective choice. In fact 1 & 3 are both OK, no 4 is way off unless you would crop to the boy in the foreground.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share #16 Posted October 11, 2009 In any case, the point is this: I probably would have taken a manual WB using a WhiBal card by the table, most likely placing it in upright position like a face by the table. Thorsten - many thanks for helpful comments - appreciated. I'm not trying to set up an on-line tutorial here () but a couple of questions when you say WhiBal card are you refering to the larger G6 reference card (Digital Photography - RawWorkflow.com - WhiBal Certified Gray Card for White Balance) or the smaller pocket one - which is what I currently use... Is your techique to take a shot of the card in each new location / light zone you walk into (setting it so it catches relevant illumination) and then to AWB during the shoot, adjusting RAWs as required in post using this shot as a reference? I've worked this way when I've had time - and I agree it's good (and IMHO more effective than trying to set a manual WB in camera - there seems no point in doing this unless your shooting JPEG...) Is it just me or are there other people out there that also believe that there is no such thing as the 'right' or correctly white balanced color? Neutral white under all circumstances makes no sense at all to me. Set to daylight (5400 K or so) if it is more or less in the daytime, or tungsten indoors in the evening (fluorescent in some cases) would be the way to start and then you can do some minor tweaking on a whole series to get the 'mood' the way you want it. Auto white balancing the whole lot is a deadly sin. Edit: From the pictures posted here I much prefer the first two ones - but that is a subjective choice. In fact 1 & 3 are both OK, no 4 is way off unless you would crop to the boy in the foreground.. Stephen - thanks for comments. Fully agree on the "correct" issue - it's all down to aesthetic judgement... However, not necessarily with you on the need to set in-camera WB if shooting RAW - though I haven't done this for a long time and am willing to stand corrected... the problem with this shoot was that I was covering at least 6 different spaces and moving between concurrent events. If anyone's interested, they can get a sense of what the gig was like by going to The Guardian Big Draw. Again - thanks to all those who've contributed. It's helping to clarify possible directions for me (and I hope is of interest for others)... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danyves Posted October 11, 2009 Share #17 Posted October 11, 2009 It is of great interest to others indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted October 11, 2009 Share #18 Posted October 11, 2009 Hi Chris, It is noon on the other side of the earth here and it is is a really nice sunny fall day. So, I wasn't able to get back to you earlier, I was asleep here, then out in the yard. Thanks for confirming that the first pictures were off to your eye, I can still listen to your valuable posts ( i.e. you aren't color deficient after all ). Those pictures were real screamers for some PP color balancing. The main problem is obviously that you will never get all of the zones in the picture balanced correctly at once. I think we all know that the trick in LR is to go into the "Camera Calibration" section in the develop module and adjust the "Red Hue" up. Then balance out the Green and Blue primaries. And, on and on, but it can usually be corrected. This is a good example because it illustrates what we have had to deal with. (Just an aside, I use and love LR for the various reasons that have to do mainly with my workflow. But, Guy over on his site did some really nice color work using C1. So, I'm hopeful that there won't be a magenta issue in the M9 when I finally get one). I think that your torture pictures mainly are just tough conditions, but... More importantly I think they demonstrate that LR just doesn't yet address the problem of having a correct profile! So, it is hard/impossible to get there. C1 sure is left smelling like a rose and Adobe is smelling like a... Anyway, another nice post again and we all learn something from the tough examples. It is probably time over on your side of the world to finish that bottle of wine I always imagine is sitting in your kitchen on the counter and go to bed. Goodnight Chris. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 11, 2009 Share #19 Posted October 11, 2009 Thorsten, I find that using a white card can give rise to problems arising from the card picking up reflected colours from other objects. I started using a white card early on in M8 days, when the auto WB was pretty poor. I found that a reference grey card gave more accurate reference points than white and that an Expodisc was better than either grey or white card, rarely needing tweaking afterwards. I have a feeling when someone was looking into the WB setting instructions in the firmware, WB was setting more than just the colour temperature but some additional colour parameters as well. The Expodisc is especially good at catching the always difficult skin colours, particularly for blonde caucasians. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theodor Heinrichsohn Posted October 11, 2009 Share #20 Posted October 11, 2009 Thorsten, I find that using a white card can give rise to problems arising from the card picking up reflected colours from other objects. I started using a white card early on in M8 days, when the auto WB was pretty poor. I found that a reference grey card gave more accurate reference points than white and that an Expodisc was better than either grey or white card, rarely needing tweaking afterwards. I have a feeling when someone was looking into the WB setting instructions in the firmware, WB was setting more than just the colour temperature but some additional colour parameters as well. The Expodisc is especially good at catching the always difficult skin colours, particularly for blonde caucasians. Wilson Thanks a lot. You have just answered the question that was on the tip of my fingers. I will use the Expodisc in complicated lighting situations as I did with the M8. Teddy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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