Is everybody happy?

[nemeng]

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Absolutely NOT happy. There should be a law about announcing about a release of a product and having nothing to sell. That's called corporate lying!

 

Completely agree. On a cranky day I will even concede that the deception here borders on fraud.

 

In theory the M9 sounds like a pretty good camera. Pity you cannot actually purchase them anywhere and realistic availability dates are well into 2010 =/

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[tashley]

My rangefinder was "out of whack" as well. Both infinity and near adjustments needed to be adjusted.

 

Not difficult if you're mechanically inclined and don't mind some risk. Good instructions available via search on these forums.

 

Thanks for the suggestion and no thanks! I carried a small Alen key in my Billingham for a long time to allow for tweaking of the M8 and I can tell you that it is a fool's game. Controversial but true: don't EVER touch it yourself. Send it off, once, with your lenses, and get them to get it just right then NEVER touch it again unless through shock or whatever it goes out of whack. My 2 cents. Make that 200.

[footsurg]

The image quality is really amazing. I love everything except the shutter delay - which I'm hoping to be changed via firmware.

 

-Ron

What can you tell me about the dreaded shutter lag? I was hoping that it would be miniscule.

Dr. J

[M'Ate]

I carried a small Alen key to allow for tweaking of the M8 and I can tell you that it is a fool's game. Controversial but true: don't EVER touch it yourself.

 

Tim, is there any information to support your strong advice ? Can you direct us to it, please ?

 

Not disputing your advice, but I adjusted mine with a 2mm hex key, and I know others have and mine's now more accurate than when it came from the factory. I only adjusted the cam in the throat and it solved my OOF issues. Couldn't see the harm as it was destined for an immediate return if it hadn't worked.

 

Isn't there a significant cost for sending in a new body and six lenses for calibration ?

[ModernMan]

I carried a small Alen key in my Billingham for a long time to allow for tweaking of the M8 and I can tell you that it is a fool's game.

(1) I have to say that I would not suggest that carrying the tools in your camera bag for adjustments in the field is generally a good idea. I'd prefer to go through the necessary proceedures in a more controlled environment, with test targets etc.

(2) While I cannot agree with your characterization of the procedure as a "fools game" does fall into the category of "convergence by successive approximations".

(3) Inferening from your carrying of the adjustment tool in your camera bag that repeated re-adjustment was necessary, it sounds possible that you had near-focus calibration issues as well (which cannot be addressed with a 2mm Allen key), or your lens(es) also required calibration (which is a whole different ball game).

 

In any case, I trust your issues were resolved when you sent the whole kit off to Leica.

[delander †]

(1) I have to say that I would not suggest that carrying the tools in your camera bag for adjustments in the field is generally a good idea. I'd prefer to go through the necessary proceedures in a more controlled environment, with test targets etc.

(2) While I cannot agree with your characterization of the procedure as a "fools game" does fall into the category of "convergence by successive approximations".

(3) Inferening from your carrying of the adjustment tool in your camera bag that repeated re-adjustment was necessary, it sounds possible that you had near-focus calibration issues as well (which cannot be addressed with a 2mm Allen key), or your lens(es) also required calibration (which is a whole different ball game).

 

In any case, I trust your issues were resolved when you sent the whole kit off to Leica.

 

Have you seen the new rig and associated equipment that Leica have constructed for the adjustment of the rangefinder?

 

Jeff

[ModernMan]

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Have you seen the new rig and associated equipment that Leica have constructed for the adjustment of the rangefinder?

 

Jeff

 

Only in a picture/video. Its not clear to me if it is used to adjust only the coupling cam and arm-length, or also to adjust other range/viewfinder stuff under the top plate (frame line alignment, parallax, etc)

 

I do readily agree that the factory ought to be able to, and do generally, adjust the rangefinder more quickly and accurately than individual users (or independent service people), and with less risk of inadvertant damage as well.

 

Further, I expect that its an exception, but my camera was well out of adjustment when it arrived, factory fresh, and notwithstanding the factory rig used to set it up. It now appears to be much better, but lets hope I didn't introduce some demon that will haunt me until I ultimately have to send it to the factory for exorcism.

[tashley]

Have you seen the new rig and associated equipment that Leica have constructed for the adjustment of the rangefinder?

 

Jeff

 

My point entirely James.

 

To answer all responses on this issue:

 

I carried an Alen key not to use in the field but because I live in two different places. As Modern Man has said, the process requires successive approximations. Now that would be fine and dandy if one had hours to kill and a perfectly rigourous technique BUT you would also need to be 100% sure that the lens you were using for benchmarking was 100% perfect itself. As we all know, that is very often not the case.

 

In any event, I and very many other people were very gung-ho about this at the time of the original M8. We all went hell for leather with out hex keys only to discover that that this covers only one of two adjustments required (the other is more complex and invasive and generally falls into the 'do not try this at home' category). What this means in practice is that one is never quite certain that in adjusting far-focus, one has not also had some effect on near focus.

 

It was also not uncommon for me and others to find that in adjusting for one benchmark lens that we trusted, other lenses were slightly off. Often one could not be 100% certain either, since focus on Ms is so 'analogue'.

 

In summary, yes, it is possible, clearly, and some people got the results they wanted quickly and easily. But if you have never done it before you don't yet know if you will be on of those lucky people. As James implies above, it was that easy, Leica wouldn't have a calibration rig the size of a shed to achieve this accurately.

 

So I reiterate, if you want to keep your hair and your sanity, send the camera back with you lenses. A good dealer will arrange this for you and it won't cost a penny.

 

Leica have no business, at all, selling finely engineered products at high prices and then allowing them to leave the factory with sloppy calibration. But they do, and in my experience this is not a great rarity and applies to both cameras and lenses. Given that this is the reality of the situation and that a properly calibrated setup is a very fine thing to use, it is worth getting it done properly and at their expense and inconvenience!

 

T

[carstenw]

'Always look on the bright side of life' as Eric Idle wrote (and sang).

 

...and whistled. Now I have that stuck in my head

[tashley]

It now appears to be much better, but lets hope I didn't introduce some demon that will haunt me until I ultimately have to send it to the factory for exorcism.

 

I really hope for your sake that you haven't because it can be very, very frustrating to slowly discern patterns of focus inaccuracy which might only occur with some lenses and at some distances. Good luck!

[carstenw]

In any event, I and very many other people were very gung-ho about this at the time of the original M8. We all went hell for leather with out hex keys only to discover that that this covers only one of two adjustments required (the other is more complex and invasive and generally falls into the 'do not try this at home' category). What this means in practice is that one is never quite certain that in adjusting far-focus, one has not also had some effect on near focus.

 

Actually, there are three adjustments. Behind the Leica dot there is a little hole which is used with a special tool to adjust the vertical alignment of the two rangefinder patches. If that one is out, the focus will never truly snap. It is adjusted at the factory, and then a dab of lacquer is applied to stop it from moving again. My camera is out just a tiny little bit, so little in fact that I have neither sent it in nor attempted adjustment myself (which requires removing the top of the camera to remove the lacquer...), but it still bothers me.

 

The second-most difficult one I have adjusted once, and this one takes care of the near-far balance, and is located at the elbow of the arm. This is needed if your camera consistently focuses differently near and far, for example if it focuses perfectly at infinity with all your lenses but is out of whack in the near areas.

 

It makes little sense to adjust the eccentric wheel if either of the above two is not right. However (!), if the above two are sorted out, then the eccentric wheel is probably the only adjustment which is going to drift with time, and tweaking it with a hex key every couple of months can avoid having to send the camera back to Leica. It is so easy to do and takes so little time, and there is almost zero risk of damage for anyone who has only two thumbs, that I heartily recommend trying it out before sending the camera back to Leica. In the worst case, the camera goes back anyway. In the best case, you fix the problem.

[mustafasoleiman]

Actually, there are three adjustments. Behind the Leica dot there is a little hole which is used with a special tool to adjust the vertical alignment of the two rangefinder patches. If that one is out, the focus will never truly snap. It is adjusted at the factory, and then a dab of lacquer is applied to stop it from moving again. My camera is out just a tiny little bit, so little in fact that I have neither sent it in nor attempted adjustment myself (which requires removing the top of the camera to remove the lacquer...), but it still bothers me.

 

The second-most difficult one I have adjusted once, and this one takes care of the near-far balance, and is located at the elbow of the arm. This is needed if your camera consistently focuses differently near and far, for example if it focuses perfectly at infinity with all your lenses but is out of whack in the near areas.

 

It makes little sense to adjust the eccentric wheel if either of the above two is not right. However (!), if the above two are sorted out, then the eccentric wheel is probably the only adjustment which is going to drift with time, and tweaking it with a hex key every couple of months can avoid having to send the camera back to Leica. It is so easy to do and takes so little time, and there is almost zero risk of damage for anyone who has only two thumbs, that I heartily recommend trying it out before sending the camera back to Leica. In the worst case, the camera goes back anyway. In the best case, you fix the problem.

 

it worked for me too, i played with the eccentric wheel and it sorted the focus.

now my eyes need some adjustment too but i could not find the same wheel for them, and got blood all over the tool, so i gave up.

still i find it easier to blame out of focus pictures to my inept engineering than leica's.

[Guest EarlBurrellPhoto]

Thanks for the suggestion and no thanks! I carried a small Alen key in my Billingham for a long time to allow for tweaking of the M8 and I can tell you that it is a fool's game. Controversial but true: don't EVER touch it yourself. Send it off, once, with your lenses, and get them to get it just right then NEVER touch it again unless through shock or whatever it goes out of whack. My 2 cents. Make that 200.

 

It wasn't a fool's game for me, but I suppose that definition hinges upon who plays it. In fact I spoke with the chap at DAG camera repair in the states and he walked me through the process. With digital it is much less time-consumming and hit-or-miss because there's the immediacy of high-magnification review. The notion that I would have the time to send my entire working kit off for a banal little adjustment is preposterous, especially as Leica's so-called pro service was never forthcoming with loaner kit on any occasion where I had no choice but to post my M8 off to them. The fact is, the rangefinder does go out of whack rather easily and frequently in hard professional use. Professional photographers like professional soldiers ought best to know how to make at least basic repairs/adjustments to their kit in the field.

[tashley]

It wasn't a fool's game for me, but I suppose that definition hinges upon who plays it.

 

Indeed. Thank you. I read two things into your implication.

 

In fact I spoke with the chap at DAG camera repair in the states and he walked me through the process. With digital it is much less time-consumming and hit-or-miss because there's the immediacy of high-magnification review. The notion that I would have the time to send my entire working kit off for a banal little adjustment is preposterous, especially as Leica's so-called pro service was never forthcoming with loaner kit on any occasion where I had no choice but to post my M8 off to them.

 

I agree that one should not have to send stuff back. I also think that most pros have backups.

 

 

The fact is, the rangefinder does go out of whack rather easily and frequently in hard professional use. Professional photographers like professional soldiers ought best to know how to make at least basic repairs/adjustments to their kit in the field.

 

Well Earl, that's really put me in my place! You can imagine how much I appreciate the guidance of a professional photographer here - you see, I'm just a dentist.

 

Tim

[ModernMan]

We all went hell for leather with out hex keys only to discover that that this covers only one of two adjustments required (the other is more complex and invasive and generally falls into the 'do not try this at home' category).

 

Yes, the complete procedure requires that both infinity and near (1m and 10m) focus be checked, and adjusted as necessary. As others have stated, a digital M makes this easier. I adjusted both to satisfactory tolerance, but the procedure probably took me 4-5 hours, given repeated validation and refinemnet with multiple lenses. In my case, both the cam and arm length (infinity and near-focus) required adjustment. Fortunately, vertical alignment (third adjustment) was fine.

 

Adjusting only the infinity focus can result in a "convergence by sucessive approximations" procedure which does not converge -- hence a "fools game".

 

It was also not uncommon for me and others to find that in adjusting for one benchmark lens that we trusted, other lenses were slightly off.

 

Yes, a given set of lenses will have variation. If it is small (it usually is) then you optimize the focus for the "average" of the lenses so that they all perform within the bounds of acceptability, perhaps weighting the "average" towards the faster lenses where focus is most critical. This means that you have to do the procedure with all your lenses. The Noctilux is the easiest to see focus variation with, owing to small depth of field. I ignored effects due to focus shift on stop down and just calibrated for maximum aperture on all lenses.

 

If a lens is an "outlier" in terms of its focus compared to the average variation of other lenses in your kit, then it may need to be "calibrated", which involves using shims or new parts to adjust the relationship between flange and the focussing mount. As far as I know, no Leica lens is adjustable by any mechanism other than shimming or parts substitution. I think this is best done by Leica at the factory since they have shims the parts available. Further, if a new the lens is an outlier, I think it amounts to a facory defect. On older lenses, where the lens heads were removeable (say, for use on a visoflex) the lens heads and mounts would occasionally get mixed up (even though the mounts usually had the lens head serial written inside) causing this class of issues.

 

In summary,

(1) The complete procedures are available via forum search results. Kudos to those who documented them.

(2) Very satisfactory results can be obtained by the mechanically inclined, at home, without exotic calibration setups, and in a fraction of the factory turnaround time.

(3) Of course, before starting read the complete procedure, carefully look at all the parts, have appropriate tools (nothing too exotic is required), and then only do it if you're confident that you can do the work without leaving a trace.

 

There are probably some good folks for whom the advice "don't EVER touch it yourself" is benefical, but it certainly does not extend to all in the Leica community.

[ArtZ]

I have two M8 and 13 new lenses. I realized I had some back/front focus issues on September 2007.

 

I played with the wheel but when one lens was ok in one camera, it wasn't on the other camera and so on. Really impossible to fix it up completely on my own.

 

I was on holidays in Germany and I stopped a couple of days at Frankfurt after Berlin. I went to Solms, left all my Leica lenses (6) and both M8 at Customer Service. I picked them up the following day (just 24 hours later) and all problems with back/front focus had disappeared. All lenses (even non-Leica lenses) were spot on. I only payed 90€ for coding the MATE. They even offered me two camera caps for the M8s and two back caps for the lenses mounted on the cameras.

 

I was also very lucky because I met behind the CS desk a pretty, sweet and always smiling girl called Sonja Becker. A real sunshine in a cold and rainning typical German automn day! Unfortunately, she doesn't work any more at M8 Customer Support (she has been promoted). Snifff...

 

When I upgraded the sapphire glass and the framelines in 2008, I realized that intermediate focus was wrong after the upgrade, especially with one camera.

 

Sonja organized to pick up all the lenses and both cameras at my home and they fixed them again. No more (focus) problems since then.

 

So my advice: If you find the problem with all your lenses and all of them are fine (spot on) on another camera, it's worth to try to do it yourself... but, personally, I would ask Customer Service to do that for me. It's not that easy and the wheel can fix infinite focus only... but you may have also a problem with intermediate focus and vertical alignment adjustments.

[ModernMan]

I was also very lucky because I met behind the CS desk a pretty, sweet and always smiling girl called Sonja Becker. A real sunshine in a cold and rainning typical German automn day! ... Sonja organized to pick up all the lenses and both cameras at my home and they fixed them again. No more (focus) problems since then.

You raise an entirely new dimension in this discussion, which has been completely overlooked. Thanks for seeing this dry subject from a different perspective.

[Guest EarlBurrellPhoto]

 

 

 

I agree that one should not have to send stuff back. I also think that most pros have backups.

 

Of course, but most pros consider backups for emergency use to get them through that day's shoot, not to use for several months whilst their equipment languishes in some understaffed workshop. That's why with Nikon and Canon we pros can get loaner equipment overnighted whilst we're packing up our broken one to send off. That's what Leica also promised, but failed to deliver--twice--when the chips were down.

 

 

 

You can imagine how much I appreciate the guidance of a professional photographer here - you see, I'm just a dentist.

 

Tim

 

Well then, I'm even more surprised that you find tweaking the eccentric wheel to adjust RF infinity such a daunting task.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[tashley]

I hereby declare this thread an irony-free zone...

[Guest EarlBurrellPhoto]

First it was a well-documented and simple infinity rangefinder adjustment, and now irony. Do you always presume that the rest of the world should be inhibited from doing whatever it is you're not good at? Lighten-up matey!