M9 – A Giant Leap in the Right Direction – Still Some Distance To Go

[zlatkob]

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No. Simple logical deduction when someone asks for 10 i/s on a Leica M.

 

He didn't ask for 10. He wrote "10 would be great, but at least 4". The Leica Motor M and M Winder offered 3 fps when dragging film through the camera. It's now so bad to ask for at least 4 fps from a digital camera? And from such an error you can deduce multiple future complaints.

[pascal_meheut]

He didn't ask for 10. He wrote "10 would be great, but at least 4".

 

Next time you go to your boss, say "a 10% raise would be great but at least 4%". If you get the 4% and your boss tells you that you didn't ask for 10%, then you'll see how you've missed your point here

 

Anyway, you'll keep concentrate on details just to prove that he is right when his whole message screams "never satisfied" and "wants contradictory things".

I stop here.

[zlatkob]

On a Leica M, the aperture command is mechanical, on the lens and easy to move. Weather sealing it might not be that simple.

 

True, but we're talking about the body, not the lens. Other manufacturers offer weather-sealed bodies in systems that include various non-weather-sealed lenses. Weather-sealed bodies don't diminish the operation of those lenses. Weather sealing simply enhances the bodies' ability to withstand some rain. All benefit, with no detriment.

[jonoslack]

Hmm

Well, Clearly lots of people do relish simplicity (I know I do). It's possible to relish that simplicity AND to like the technological options (including other useful things you didn't mention). However, it's perfectly clear that if you added all this list to an M10 it would be a great deal bigger, and no longer simple. I'm not aware of any other high level cameras which relish simplicity, so why take away the single one that does?

Added to which, sometimes constraints will force one into another, and profitable way of working. Let's face it, the next thing on the list would be zoom lenses (why on earth not).

 

By the way, I don't think anyone around here really doesn't want weather seals, at least on the shutter and the speed dial,

 

I had lots of ideas about how the M could be improved, and they haven't changed, but I'd also like to keep it the same!

 

So - how about an N or O series leica, which has electronic framelines, zoom-able 'rangefinder' focus confirmation, and a modified lens mount so that you can accept M lenses, but also lenses with electronics allowing for zoom lenses, autofocus etc. etc. Still with the basic principles of rangefinder photography, with the short back focus distance etc. I'm not sure that I like all of Modern Man's list of 17, but lots could find their way here. Why not video as well, Live view etc.? I'm sure that I'd buy a camera like that, and that lots of others would as well (I'm also certain that it would have to be bigger than the M9)

 

I just don't think that you need to be spoiling the simplicity of the current M philosophy by turning it into something that a lot of people (myself included) clearly don't want. But, yes, lets have weather seals and a 900,000 LCD

[pascal_meheut]

Hmm

By the way, I don't think anyone around here really doesn't want weather seals, at least on the shutter and the speed dial,

 

We all want some improvements. As I said before, the length of the list is the problem (and some points of course but this is always the case).

 

There is an argument against weather seals if you cannot have it on lenses too. It will add cost and complexity and end-up before only partially useful because the camera will still have problems under heavy rain as water will pour into it through the lens.

 

This is the kind of compromise engineering and selling products is about...

[zlatkob]

I'm not convinced that any of the 23 items would increase the size of the camera. Well, the multi-battery grip in #10 would, but I assume that would be an optional accessory. Many items on the list obviously would not make the camera bigger (user profiles, recessed buttons, instant on, etc.). We can speculate about a few of the items possibly making the camera bigger.

[lct]

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1) Install/remove cards and battery without baseplate removal : OK

2) Recessed buttons on back : OK

3) Viewfinder diopter adjustment : No room enough (i guess)

4) Higher FPS (10 would be great, but at least 4) : No room enough (i guess)

5) Larger, higher resolution LCD (920k dot VGA) : Useless for me

6) Display on top of camera: exposure, battery, exposure comp, ISO, … : OK

7) More info displayed in viewfinder: ISO, shutter (even when not using auto) : Would need a totally redesigned VF

8) Weather sealing : Useless with current lenses

9) Instant on – no perceptible delay until ready to shoot : Is the M9 that slow?

10) Increased battery capacity via a grip with multiple battery capability : Only as an optional accessory

11) CF support for faster cards : No room enough (i guess) and CF cards are less reliable than SDs

12) Highly-wear-resistant black paint finish : Black chrome is more resistant

13) Zoom viewfinder (or multiple discrete magnification settings) accommodating lenses from 21mm (or less) to 135mm : Not the M spirit

14) Distance-corrected viewfinder – field of view correction in addition to the already present parallax correction : Would need a totally redesigned VF

15) MP sized body : Hardly compatible with the features you're asking for

16) Scratch resistant screen (sapphire or hardened glass) : Too expensive, screen protectors work well

17) User profiles where features may be unspecified so the profile does not affect the feature settings : Useless for me

18) Video – 1080p : Useless for me, i'd prefer a reversible display a la Epson R-D1 or Canon G11

19) Liveview : Sucks battery, causes heat hence introduces more noise, useless for me

20) Remote operation controlled by computer : Useless for me

21) Video out : Useless for me

22) Direct printing : Useless for me

23) WIFI support for computer connectivity (802.11n) : Useless for me

[rosuna]

1) Install/remove cards and battery without baseplate removal : NO! I LOVE THE BASEPLATE!

2) Recessed buttons on back : OK

3) Viewfinder diopter adjustment: No room enough (i guess) AGREE

4) Higher FPS (10 would be great, but at least 4) : I DON'T CARE

5) Larger, higher resolution LCD (920k dot VGA) : YES, IT IS A MUST. BUT, PLEASE, "AT LEAST" 460k dot

6) Display on top of camera: exposure, battery, exposure comp, ISO, … : NO!

7) More info displayed in viewfinder: ISO, shutter (even when not using auto) : Would need a totally redesigned VF. ISO INFO IS EASY TO ADD, USING SHUTTER NUMBER WHEN PRESSING "ISO".

8) Weather sealing : Useless with current lenses NO. IT IS COMPLEX AND EXPENSIVE

9) Instant on – no perceptible delay until ready to shoot : Is the M9 that slow? THERE IS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENTS.

10) Increased battery capacity via a grip with multiple battery capability : Only as an optional accessory NO!

11) CF support for faster cards : No room enough (i guess) and CF cards are less reliable than SDs NO, SDs ARE PERFECT.

12) Highly-wear-resistant black paint finish : Black chrome is more resistant. OK.

13) Zoom viewfinder (or multiple discrete magnification settings) accommodating lenses from 21mm (or less) to 135mm : Not the M spirit. NO M CAMERAS AREN'T REFLEX CAMERAS.

14) Distance-corrected viewfinder – field of view correction in addition to the already present parallax correction : Would need a totally redesigned VF NO. M CAMERAS AREN'T REFLEX CAMERAS.

15) MP sized body : Hardly compatible with the features you're asking for AGREE

16) Scratch resistant screen (sapphire or hardened glass) : Too expensive, screen protectors work well SOME IMPROVEMENT IS NEEDED AND ZAFIRE IS TOO EXPENSIVE.

17) User profiles where features may be unspecified so the profile does not affect the feature settings : Useless for me AGREE

18) Video – 1080p : Useless for me, AGREE

19) Liveview : Sucks battery, causes heat hence introduces more noise, useless for me. THIS MAY BE A GOOD IDEA. IT WOULD ALLOW AN ACCESORY EVF. GOOD FOR SUPER WIDE ANGLE, TELES, MACRO and R LENSES. JUST ONE ACCESORY VF FOR ALL LENSES

20) Remote operation controlled by computer : Useless for me AGREE

21) Video out : Useless for me AGREE

22) Direct printing : Useless for me AGREE

23) WIFI support for computer connectivity (802.11n) : Useless for me THIS CAN BE ACHIEVED BY MEANS OF WIFI SD CARDS.

24) A redesigned (more minimalistic) interface: the S2 interface. Only 4 buttons and a wheel (just in the place of the traditional rewind knob, like the R-D1).

[ulrikft]

I would certainly like to see a viewfinder which does away with the need for aux finders, magnifiers and dioptres but I agree that most of the rest of the list is feature-bloat which gets away from the essence of M photography. If you don't get it, maybe the M is not for you?

 

I'm picking someone to quote reasonably random here, since there are many like this.

 

"I would like this particular feature, all other features are anti-leica"...

 

seriously guys?

 

I'll adress a few points:

 

1) People argue that if your lenses aren't weather sealed, weather sealing the body is useless. This is false. If you have a rubberized mount or put o-rings on your lense bayonets (as i do with my ai-s lenses on my d700), you have already made it far less likely to have problems with moist. A 80% solution is far better than a 0% one..

 

2) A higher res LCD-screen does not necessarily have to be more expensive OR more "complex", as some have said, I think this "I WANT SIMPLICITY" is more a case of "I'm a luddite". A Leica M-camera is not simple at all to begin with, if you want the utmost simplicity, make yourself a pinhole camera. Using the simplicity argument to draw the line exactly where _you_ want is dishonest.

[andreas_thomsen]

buy a canon

cheers

andy

[pascal_meheut]

1) People argue that if your lenses aren't weather sealed, weather sealing the body is useless. This is false. If you have a rubberized mount or put o-rings on your lense bayonets (as i do with my ai-s lenses on my d700), you have already made it far less likely to have problems with moist. A 80% solution is far better than a 0% one..

 

2) A higher res LCD-screen does not necessarily have to be more expensive OR more "complex", as some have said, I think this "I WANT SIMPLICITY" is more a case of "I'm a luddite". A Leica M-camera is not simple at all to begin with, if you want the utmost simplicity, make yourself a pinhole camera. Using the simplicity argument to draw the line exactly where _you_ want is dishonest.

 

As many people, you focus on 1 or 2 points. The problem is with a 23 points lists.

 

And if you look at the M mount, you'll explain how to add a rubber without hiding the optical detector.

Addings things to a camera is quite easy on an Internet forum with no real world constraints like engineering and pricing.

[ulrikft]

As many people, you focus on 1 or 2 points. The problem is with a 23 points lists.

 

And if you look at the M mount, you'll explain how to add a rubber without hiding the optical detector.

Addings things to a camera is quite easy on an Internet forum with no real world constraints like engineering and pricing.

 

I wrote an earlier post, read it.

 

if you put a thin o-ring outside the optical detector, you will still get protection, and as said: getting 80% protection is better than 0%. Your condecending tone and arrogance is.. misplaced to say the least.

[Leicaiste]

The argument for simplicity is a false one. Otherwise, everyone promoting simplicity would have firmly rejected such innovations as the coupled rangefinder, parallax correction, the bayonet mount, in-camera metering and ... the worst offender of all ... digital photography.

 

Sorry, but aren't coupled rangefinder simpler to use than separate rangefinder, bayonet mount than screw mount and in camera metering than separate light meter ? And smaller integrated in the camera than the separated instruments ?

 

The Canon 5DMkII is not a system about to die from technology blot or mission blot. It's a great success and, in skilled hands, is simple to use. By allowing extensive customization to the user's needs and habits, its technological complexity offers the means to simplify function.

 

But regarding the 5DMII that I also use, aren't those comments kinds of oxymoron ?

 

Simple to use in skilled hands and simplify function by extensive customization ?

 

;-)

 

More seriously, I think that the 5DMII is easier to use in non-skilled hands than the M9 and doesn't really need that much customization. But at a cost, bigger size.

 

 

Lucien

[lct]

What's the point of building a weather-sealed camera if lenses are not weather-sealed as well? Just curious.

[BKK dan]

1)

16) Scratch resistant screen (sapphire or hardened glass) : Too expensive, screen protectors work well

 

I fail to understand this logic.

 

People cough up some $7,000 for a camera and start sweating when they have to pay slightly more?

 

We're not talking about a drastic price increase, maybe $150 in mass production. At most.

 

It's not like an upgrade when you have to pay for labor and administration and such.

 

Please, think before you dutifully repeat the marketing strategy of Leica.

[diogenis]

Also, may I add, I have never seen anyone on weather sealed cameras shooting under pouring rain, unless you want to catch pneumonia

I mean even if you do manage to get weather sealed lenses, what about weather sealed people

[mhoersch]

This forum is getting funnier and funnier. People like Sean Reid and countless others have lamented the absence of weather seals on the M8 for years and maintained that this is one of its most serious flaws. Now, in the name of simplicity, weather seals are said to ruin 50 years of Leica legacy if they will finally be implemented in the M9's successor.

 

Was anyone interested in simplicity and Leica legacy when that silly On/Off and Exposure Mode switch of the M8 was put on the M9 and a menu item added to deactivate the catastrophic self timer position on the switch? (I can really see the Leica legacy at work on that one!) Is manual lens selection from an endless list on a tiny monitor really that much simpler than using coded lenses which are recognized automatically? And are 18 megapixels and handling almost four times bigger files really so much simpler than 10?

 

The OP has listed some very sound suggestions for improvements, most of which have been asked for on this forum many, many times. So what seems to be his crime? He clearly identified the fact that Leica brings out a new camera which, for the most part, uses technology that was outdated even in 2006 when the M8 was released. And he simply hopes and wishes that Leica would catch up with at least some of the improvements that most cameras nowadays have.

 

That the M8 and M9 produce fantastic images nevertheless is almost entirely due to the fantastic M lenses. It will be very interesting to see which turn discussions like this are going to take once there is even a single competitor on the market, like a Zeiss DRF, for example. I wonder how many people will defend Leica's alleged simplicity (Is there anything more mechanically and optically complicated than the rangefinder?) when the Zeiss turns out to be easier to use and produce technically better images.

 

Interesting times are lying ahead of us, indeed.

[stunsworth]

This forum is getting funnier and funnier. People like Sean Reid and countless others have lamented the absence of weather seals on the M8 for years and maintained that this is one of its most serious flaws. Now, in the name of simplicity, weather seals are said to ruin 50 years of Leica legacy if they will finally be implemented in the M9's successor.

 

I don't think people are saying that weather sealing the body will ruin the Leica legacy, rather they are asking what's the point in weather sealing the body if the lenses aren't sealed.

[redbaron]

Don't like it, don't buy it. If you think you can build it better then do so, but if you're trying to work out why Leica didn't put any of these features in the M9 I'd suggest, in the politest of terms, that they are crap.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pascal_meheut]

I wrote an earlier post, read it.

 

if you put a thin o-ring outside the optical detector, you will still get protection, and as said: getting 80% protection is better than 0%. Your condecending tone and arrogance is.. misplaced to say the least.

 

And as I said, engineering on an Internet forum is easy. Not tantamount to arrogance at all btw