phovsho Posted September 29, 2009 Share #41 Posted September 29, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I had an M8 and traded it on an M9. I was happy enough with the M8 but the M9 is a big step up IMHO in terms of user experience and "seeing". Not least the fact that with full frame my M lens on the M9 are equivalent to the perspective when using my M film cameras (my primary medium). This may not be an issue for folks used to cropped images e.g., got back into Leica due to the M8. The cropping didn't bother me too much with the M8 until I got to try my wife's M9 and realized what a compromise the crop was to how I "see". The FF perspective feature is more important to me than any promised file quality/ISO issues - the files are superb on the M8 and I'm more than happy with them already. FF is IMHO the biggest single step Leica could make towards an enduring digital camera. The suggestion that an M9 = M8.3 doesn't ring true to me, sorry, for exactly the reason that it is because of FF (not file size, contrast, ISO etc.) that I upgraded. I will have no regrets if an M10 gets released on 10/10/10 (very optimistic timeframe in my opinion). If it is an M9 killer then I will consider upgrading then. However, it will have to offer a reason to upgrade again much more compelling than file size, marginal ISO improvement etc and have a realistic price. In the mean time I will use and enjoy my M9 knowing it is the best digital option for me at this time. Out of interest, there are a lot of M9 nay-sayers who seem to have two complaints: "I wouldn't buy that for $7000"; and "I'm waiting 12 months for the version with S2 technology, Lcd battery indicator, saphire glass etc". Will be interesting to see how all these two objections get reconciled in a single camera. Just how much do you think the up-speced M10 will cost? It won't be anything close to $7,000. Enjoy your favored camera (today) M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 Hi phovsho, Take a look here One less M9 customer, I canceled my order today.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
luigi bertolotti Posted September 29, 2009 Share #42 Posted September 29, 2009 Well, mods, seems that time has came to start the M10 subforum... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted September 29, 2009 Share #43 Posted September 29, 2009 You guys crack me up. M9=M8.3, at best. Let's wait for the M10. With the M10 we could hope that the technology will trickle down from the S2, rather than trickle up from the M8! Try to argue with that! I fully agree.......I too am waiting for the M10. (10/10/10 announcement?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted September 29, 2009 Share #44 Posted September 29, 2009 Out of interest, there are a lot of M9 nay-sayers who seem to have two complaints: "I wouldn't buy that for $7000"; and "I'm waiting 12 months for the version with S2 technology, Lcd battery indicator, saphire glass etc". Will be interesting to see how all these two objections get reconciled in a single camera. Just how much do you think the up-speced M10 will cost? It won't be anything close to $7,000. Enjoy your favored camera (today) M First I would not be surprised if the M9 is considerably cheaper to produce than M8.2. Second Leica will most likely sell 20 to 30, 000 M9 cameras this ye based on the history of introducing the M8. They will have as a priority I guess maintaining that level of business and that will drive the M10 at a price which is market driven and similar to M9. Third > I would be amased if they do not use the S2 Maestro chip set as it is more advanced presumably and there are many reports here about the current DSP being slow with 18MP files. > I also suspect that they will want to use more recent sensor technology as the current one is 5 years old and at some point they will be faced with an "all time buy demand" as few processes last longer than say 5 - 8 years. > A year should be an opportunity to fix other niggles (top plate display), OLED monitor with High Definition low power and high luminosity, firmware upgrades (shutter lockup issue etc.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 29, 2009 Share #45 Posted September 29, 2009 To add to that ... I don't know what Nikon and Canon is pulling out of their bags this Fall. Incidentally, the sales-people (here in the US) handling dealers has an attitude which I can't place my finger on ... not sure where is that snobbishness originating from ... from deep profits and being a super successful camera company? May be they should review their balanced sheet. I think I know where it originates from ... an artificially induced demand, which I believe will subside not too far in the future. I wonder ... how large is the high-priced rangefinder market among the professionals. I bet it is less than 5% of the market share compared to Nikon and Canon. How big is the high-prices professional market compared to the amateur market in the 135 class? I bet less than 10%. Let's face it, from the bottom line of sales it is nice to have a few high-profile pros on the books, but the percentage of working pros that buy your camera is only a fraction of turnover. Now the MF market - that is a different story. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted September 29, 2009 Share #46 Posted September 29, 2009 First I would not be surprised if the M9 is considerably cheaper to produce than M8.2. Second Leica will most likely sell 20 to 30, 000 M9 cameras this ye based on the history of introducing the M8. They will have as a priority I guess maintaining that level of business and that will drive the M10 at a price which is market driven and similar to M9. Third > I would be amased if they do not use the S2 Maestro chip set as it is more advanced presumably and there are many reports here about the current DSP being slow with 18MP files. > I also suspect that they will want to use more recent sensor technology as the current one is 5 years old and at some point they will be faced with an "all time buy demand" as few processes last longer than say 5 - 8 years. > A year should be an opportunity to fix other niggles (top plate display), OLED monitor with High Definition low power and high luminosity, firmware upgrades (shutter lockup issue etc.) How would you know production costs and why would someone of your experience think that retail prices are tied to them? If I did that I'd be out of business! Retail price points are set by a whole set of complex criteria, which would be known by a very select few at Leica. There is no M10. The top plate display was deleted on purpose according to Leica's design philosophy. It is not a niggle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernMan Posted September 30, 2009 Share #47 Posted September 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The top plate display was deleted on purpose according to Leica's design philosophy. It is not a niggle. So Leica's enduring design philosopohy changed between the time when they made the M8 with a top plate display, and the M9 without one? Attributing the absense of a top plate display in the M9 to some "design philosophy" is a stretch. Seems more likely attributable to a business imperative such as "get this product to market asap" together with engineering obstacles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted September 30, 2009 Share #48 Posted September 30, 2009 So Leica's enduring design philosopohy changed between the time when they made the M8 with a top plate display, and the M9 without one? Attributing the absense of a top plate display in the M9 to some "design philosophy" is a stretch. Seems more likely attributable to a business imperative such as "get this product to market asap" together with engineering obstacles. generally, I find this thread both interesting and amusing. A fair reflection of 'real world' workings and opinions. Pity more threads aren't as stable. Modernman, I speak as an M9 owner and at first I missed the top plate LCD. It did provide a functionality that is not achieved any other way. ie. instant 'visual grab' of status with out actually 'using' the camera. Other than that, I miss it not. The flip side of the reality is that when I need that info most, for me is in dark situations when I am using the camera. At this point, the one touch info button gives me instant, more accurate update on battery and shot status, and more importantly, I can read it in the dinghy environment I seem to inhabit. On balance I feel that change is a move forward. The next 'update' I am looking for is shutter speed display in VF when using manual settings, which I often find desirable in the same dingy environments as well as others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted September 30, 2009 Share #49 Posted September 30, 2009 So Leica's enduring design philosopohy changed between the time when they made the M8 with a top plate display, and the M9 without one. Yep. Have a look at the notch in the top plate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted September 30, 2009 Share #50 Posted September 30, 2009 Frank the first is only your guess is it not? Your second comment contradicts what Stefan Daniel said, which is that Leica Camera AG has consistently sold 10,000 to 12,000 M cameras per year for some time (including over the life of the M8). There was no indication as recently as June that Solms was expanding facilities or staff at Solms commensurate with a large production increase as you have suggested. The Portugal factory at that time was not running full time either and further the move to the new Wetzlar facilities has been postponed until 2012 for cost reasons too. Of course the M9 is not the only product competing for production space. Presumably all of the initial M9 production run has sold and orders are waiting (mine included). This is a very positive sign, of course. Maybe M10 speculation belongs in its own Forum somewhere?? All of 3 weeks since the M9 was announced. First I would not be surprised if the M9 is considerably cheaper to produce than M8.2. Second Leica will most likely sell 20 to 30, 000 M9 cameras this ye based on the history of introducing the M8. They will have as a priority I guess maintaining that level of business and that will drive the M10 at a price which is market driven and similar to M9. Third > I would be amased if they do not use the S2 Maestro chip set as it is more advanced presumably and there are many reports here about the current DSP being slow with 18MP files. > I also suspect that they will want to use more recent sensor technology as the current one is 5 years old and at some point they will be faced with an "all time buy demand" as few processes last longer than say 5 - 8 years. > A year should be an opportunity to fix other niggles (top plate display), OLED monitor with High Definition low power and high luminosity, firmware upgrades (shutter lockup issue etc.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted September 30, 2009 Share #51 Posted September 30, 2009 generally, I find this thread both interesting and amusing. A fair reflection of 'real world' workings and opinions. Pity more threads aren't as stable. Modernman, I speak as an M9 owner and at first I missed the top plate LCD. It did provide a functionality that is not achieved any other way. ie. instant 'visual grab' of status with out actually 'using' the camera. Other than that, I miss it not. The flip side of the reality is that when I need that info most, for me is in dark situations when I am using the camera. At this point, the one touch info button gives me instant, more accurate update on battery and shot status, and more importantly, I can read it in the dinghy environment I seem to inhabit. On balance I feel that change is a move forward. The next 'update' I am looking for is shutter speed display in VF when using manual settings, which I often find desirable in the same dingy environments as well as others. I am missing the top plate LCD as a quick point of reference on a busy shoot. Frank's idea of OLED display and top plate OLED would be great. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted September 30, 2009 Share #52 Posted September 30, 2009 How would you know production costs and why would someone of your experience think that retail prices are tied to them? If I did that I'd be out of business! Retail price points are set by a whole set of complex criteria, which would be known by a very select few at Leica. There is no M10. The top plate display was deleted on purpose according to Leica's design philosophy. It is not a niggle. If was on purpose it still niggles me. All my other M's have a top plate display (frame counter) at the other end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted September 30, 2009 Share #53 Posted September 30, 2009 If was on purpose it still niggles me. All my other M's have a top plate display (frame counter) at the other end. Brett, some of my earlier M's have shutter speed dials that go 'backwards'! You should consider living with that. The reality is that life and things evolve, for better or for worse (sounds like marriage eh!), but you must take it as it is because you (me) can't change it. I have got used to different speed dials, you will get used to different LCD's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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